Adventure Travel with Richard Campbell - 10Adventures

Area/Topic
Worldwide, Trip Planning, Shared Adventures

Richard Campbell
Founder & CEO
10Adventures

Richard is the founder and CEO of 10Adventures, a platform to book customizable and private active vacations. With trips in 85+ countries and travellers from 35+ countries, 10Adventures is a global platform that enables people to create meaningful travel experiences with the people that matter most in their lives. These shared experiences end up as the photos on their walls, the stories that are told at family reunions, and the memories that last a lifetime.

Richard has spent his 25-year career in high-growth start-ups and scale-ups, having worked across three continents, and worked in English, French, and Spanish.  In addition, Richard is an adventure traveler himself, and now spends his weekends exploring the Rocky Mountains with his wife and 3 children.

https://www.10adventures.com/

summary
Richard Campbell, founder and CEO of 10 Adventures, shares his journey from running a consulting company to starting a hiking website and eventually launching 10 Adventures. He discusses the importance of travel and the joy of exploring different cultures and places. Richard explains how technology has impacted the travel industry, with an abundance of information and options available to travelers. He highlights the value of simplicity and personalized experiences in adventure travel, where local tour operators can provide insider knowledge and create unique trips. Richard also emphasizes the benefits of slow travel and immersing oneself in a destination. The conversation explores the phenomenon of the 'Instagramization' of travel, where people are influenced by popular travel photos on social media and seek to visit the same places. However, this often leads to overcrowding and a lack of authentic experiences. The speakers discuss the importance of getting off the beaten track and exploring lesser-known destinations to have more meaningful and unique experiences. They also highlight the benefits of adventure travel, such as walking or cycling holidays, which provide opportunities for physical activity, mental health benefits, and quality time with loved ones. Overall, the conversation emphasizes the power of travel to create lasting memories and connections.

takeaways

• Richard Campbell started 10 Adventures after running a consulting company and realizing his passion for creating and helping people.
• Technology has provided travelers with an abundance of information, but it has also made travel planning more complex and overwhelming.
• 10 Adventures simplifies adventure travel by offering personalized trips planned by local tour operators, providing insider knowledge and unique experiences.
• Slow travel allows for a deeper connection with a destination and a more authentic experience.
• Adventure travel offers the opportunity to explore off-the-beaten-path locations and engage with local cultures. The 'Instagramization' of travel can lead to overcrowding and a lack of authentic experiences.
• Getting off the beaten track and exploring lesser-known destinations can provide more meaningful and unique experiences.
• Adventure travel, such as walking or cycling holidays, offers physical and mental health benefits.
• Travel provides an opportunity for quality time with loved ones and the creation of lasting memories and connections.

Learn more about Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Marketing and join our private community to get episode updates, special access to our guests, and exclusive adventure travel offers at bigworldmadesmall.com.

Transcript

Jason Elkins (00:00.778)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. Today we've got Richard Campbell. Richard is the founder and CEO of 10 Adventures. So happy to have you on the show, Richard.

Richard (00:13.806)
Hey Jason, it's great to be on.

Jason Elkins (00:15.882)
Hey, we spoke recently, it was a few weeks ago, we kind of had our first conversation. I was just really intrigued by some of the stuff you're doing. I had mentioned right before I hit the record button, we'd probably talk a little bit about your podcast and it just feels like this is the time to mention it. So we had discussed a little bit how you are also a podcaster. So it's nice to have you on the show and kind of do this together. So I appreciate you being here.

Richard (00:39.822)
Yeah, it's fun just, you know, being able to talk travel and talk to interesting people and get new ideas of places to go. I think it's, you know, for me, but maybe it's the same for you. It's like, you know, an hour of fun every week with somebody interesting. So it's kind of a joy to do.

Jason Elkins (00:55.786)
It is, I'm not at the point where I'm making any money from the podcast and that's not been my motivation. And originally I just started this just because I wanted to have conversations with interesting people about interesting places and interesting things. And you're one of those folks. So I'm really happy that we connected. And I want to do something a little different. We're not here to necessarily speak about your company per se or a specific destination.

but it's really to help the listeners connect with you as a person. And one of the fun ways to do that is I always kind of like to figure out how did you get from wherever you were to where you are now? So we can go back as far as you think is relevant. How far back should we go?

Richard (01:36.462)
Yeah, so I'm here by accident almost, but also a little bit of destiny. I was running a consulting company, you know, we were 400 people, super successful, and I turned 40, I'd gone back to school to take kind of a leadership course. And it was, you know, basically the message was spend the next 20 years of your career doing something that's really important to you that really connects.

Consulting is great. I was working with great people But I'm somebody that likes to create and help people and in consulting, you know These are these massive projects where you're almost just you know a cog in that massive massive Project and so I realized I want to get back to tech I want to get you know, go again from zero to one That's what's really fun when a company gets to be kind of a midsize You lose a lot of that the fun because everything gets a bit more

prescribed, you know, you've already done most of the stuff and so you're kind of doing the same thing again and again. So I started a little website of my favorite hikes from Montana all the way up into Jasper in Canada and that kind of took off and I was doing it just I said, I want to get back into tech. I want to show people I still have my, you know, tech chops after not doing it for a decade and it took off and people said, you know, can they contribute their favorite hikes where they live? And so it grew into this hiking website and then

people started asking if I could be their guide. And I'm like, I'm just a guy sitting here in Calgary who created a hiking website. I can't guide you in the Amalfi Coast or in the French Alps or in, you know, down in the Sierras. But I realized when everyone keeps asking you to do something, there's something there. So after a couple of years, I said, okay, I'm going to give this a shot as a real business and left my job and basically started 10 Adventures as a place to book private.

customizable travel that's affordable with a focus on hiking and cycling holidays. And that was in, we launched in August of 2019. So not the best time to launch a travel startup, but in a sense it was actually a really good time because we had, you know, we launched with a very incomplete product and when COVID ended, we'd, you know, beavered away for almost two years to come with a really complete product, great relationships.

Richard (03:59.374)
and ready to address this travel boom that happened after COVID.

Jason Elkins (04:04.522)
Yeah, it's, it's interesting because I've spoken with quite a few folks like yourself that really kind of really stepped in or jumped in and, you know, had some product in a website right as COVID was starting or right before that. And you, you know, I think the common theme that I've heard is it was actually great because we really had a time to dial in our, our processes, dial in our product and really kind of figure things out. Maybe spend a little more time, you know, improving the website, just kind of getting ready.

And, you know, I guess the ones that didn't last probably aren't around to have conversations on my podcast. So I mean, I recognize it wasn't great for everybody, but I have noticed a bit of a trend of, it was an opportunity for kind of people to restructure things and re and really just when you look at the world as a whole, an opportunity to just kind of reevaluate priorities and, which is probably a big part of why we saw such a boom in travel after, after that all kind of, yeah.

Richard (05:01.486)
Yeah, yeah, everyone was just, you know, travel is so meaningful for our lives. You think we work all year for these one or two weeks where we kind of get to, it's almost like we're like pretending to be someone else. You know, we leave our office job and we go to some far -flung place and explore different cultures and foods and way of doing things. And yeah, I think a lot of people realized how important travel was when all of a sudden they couldn't do it. And we're still seeing lots of people who are still recovering from COVID and

not being able to travel and people who kind of like they've changed their lives. They've become, you know, maybe digital nomads or they've taken a remote job so they can, you know, travel the world while working. And I think it's, it's helped us understand just how important it is to connect with other people and other cultures and see different things. And that's something, you know, you just can't, you can't, you can't watch a video and feel what it's like to be in a country or, you know, smell the smells or taste the food or what you do.

just being there is you gotta kinda be there and for a lot of us we realized, this is really important what we're doing and it's really important to go out and explore the world.

Jason Elkins (06:08.202)
Yeah, now that's exactly what I did. I got to the point where sitting in my little apartment in Phoenix, Arizona, couldn't leave, couldn't interact with people. And I watched a lot of videos, to be honest with you. But you're right. They just got the juices flowing. And it's like, OK, as soon as I can go, I'm out of here. And I've been doing that for the last two and a half years now. And it's the connections and just the opportunities to see things, amazing things that.

Honestly, I probably wouldn't be doing if COVID hadn't come around. I would have probably just continued my normal life. I was selling residential real estate in Phoenix, Arizona, you know, and yeah, so it's, you know, obviously there were some, some real costs and consequences that came along with it. And it was a horrible thing for many people. but it definitely got me, got me kind of thinking about what I wanted to do with my next 20. So.

So I appreciate that. Hey, I'm curious. So your hiking website sounds a lot like a blog site. Is that basically you had a blog site articles about hiking destinations or what was that? What was that all about?

Richard (07:13.71)
Yeah, so it was kind of the our goal was to give guidebook quality route guides. And so kind of when we launched when I launched that most sites were like blog sites where it'd be, you know, there was no structure. It was hard to find, you know, blog route guides in a specific region. And then a lot of the blogs were like more about what people had for lunch or, you know, how their dog enjoyed the hike. And I was just like, I think people just want to know where to park and how long it is.

Jason Elkins (07:20.298)
Okay.

Richard (07:43.342)
and how difficult it is, are there any parts where they might die on it? And just like some of those, do you need a permit? And so it was just like, try and be as informational as possible and just give like really, really, really clean data. And so that just really connected. And that was kind of, AllTrails wasn't around. There was a couple other websites that kind of did that, but it was trying to move from this storytelling into

Let's just give you the goods so you can go and have a safe day in the mountains. And yeah, that, that really, really connected with, I've subsequently realized there's people that want information and there's people that want the stories. I think the blogs has actually been surpassed. You know, people are using Instagram or Tik TOK or YouTube to get the story side. The people that still want the information, they're still using sites like 10 Adventures or all trails to get just the pure information. But yeah, when, when I did it, it was kind of,

Jason Elkins (08:16.842)
Mm -hmm.

Jason Elkins (08:25.578)
you

Richard (08:42.094)
somewhat novel because most people were doing a blog and telling a story.

Jason Elkins (08:47.273)
Okay, which is why obviously you've got a lot of people's attention or a lot of attention from people that wanted to have you guide them. I guess not so much virtually, but in real life. So that's very cool. So what's the name of that website? 10 Adventures as well, or was there a rebranding when you got into selling trucks?

Richard (09:07.182)
Yes, it was called 10 Hikes and the idea was I'll just do that for Hikes and then people said, I like mountain biking in Colorado. Can I share my favorite mountain biking trails or backpacking start happening? I'm a road biker so I started doing some road biking. Other people wanted road biking. So eventually we had like 10 different activity types on the site and it's like, 10 Hikes is really hard to sell cycling holidays or Seca hiking holidays. And so he said, okay, let's just.

Jason Elkins (09:09.546)
Okay.

Richard (09:36.174)
re -shifted to 10 Adventures. And originally it was the 10 different adventure types we focused on. But also I had a friend in school whose advice was always be planning your next adventure, your next trip as soon as you come back from a holiday. Start on your next one. And he always had like 10 trips. He was always like his bucket list was always about 10 trips. So he's like, I have my bucket list of 10 trips so I always know what to do and I have stuff to pick from.

And I kind of liked that idea and I realized actually lots of people have kind of something similar where they know about it, about 10 trips that they want to do. And so it kind of played two ways on this 10 Adventures theme.

Jason Elkins (10:15.05)
No, it makes a lot of sense. And I can recall back to when I was leading group trips or, you know, I managed to lodge in Belize while, and I had a lot of interaction with guests. And quite often the topic of conversation, no matter where we were, no matter how amazing the place we were, the topic of conversation was quite often, where are you going next? Or asking other people, where have you been? Because I'm thinking about where I want to go next. And I would say it seemed like 30, 40 % of the conversation at the dinner table was around where are we going next?

So that makes a lot of sense. Do you mind if we go back a little further? Because I'm curious, you mentioned tech, you mentioned the consulting firm. I'd love to go back to kind of your youth a little bit. Were you traveling when you were a kid? Were your parents into it? Were you already inspired to travel a bit? Or what was it like back then?

Richard (11:04.59)
Yeah, so I grew up here on the eastern slope of the Canadian Rockies. So as a kid, we'd go camping a lot in summer. And when you go camping, you know, we'd go out for hikes. You know, we'd go to the States and go on road trips and stuff. But, you know, back in the 80s and 90s, I don't know, it feels like there wasn't as much money around. I don't, I don't know, but I didn't know anyone who was traveling internationally. I know airfare was more. And so I kind of didn't leave North America until after I graduated.

university and I think what happened was I really felt a desire to go traveling and yeah I went traveling and just kind of like a lot of people just fell in love with the you know the freedom and just just not knowing what's going to happen so I did kind of you know everyone said you know when I did it everyone went to Europe for a few months so I did that and then I went and got a job for a couple years in London England and traveled all throughout Europe and

along the way, you know, spent a couple months in India and Nepal and spent a summer in the Alps and Pyrenees and just kind of just fell in love with this way of exploring and that just became part of my life. I went to work a job down in Argentina and another one in the French part of Canada and just again and again, I'd kind of, I'd finish a contract or a job and then I'd go somewhere usually to go, you know, hiking, backpacking or cycling and

Yeah, just fell in love with with traveling and my parents have actually become travelers, but we travel a little bit differently. They're you know, they're older. They love cruises and you know that type of trip where I go on cruises. I don't mind them, but. I definitely prefer getting off the beaten beaten path and you know, just stay in and local family run ins or hotels and meeting the owners and going to little you know local restaurants. That's kind of for me. Understanding the culture and the people is a real big.

Jason Elkins (12:59.274)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So were these jobs you were doing, you'd mentioned tech and consulting, were these typically tech type jobs or what kind of jobs were you doing as you were moving around?

Richard (13:08.878)
Yeah, so in London I worked, I was the first employee at a tech startup, not even a product, just an idea and the two founders and ended up that became a company that sold for about $350 million. So it was kind of fun to go from nothing to, hey, we've got a really successful company. And also that was in 2000, you know, the dot -com boom, the first boom and bust to kind of go through that and raise money. And then, you know,

go down to a core team, grow and shrink and grow and almost go bust. And then down in Quebec and Argentina, I was a tech advisor for not -for -profits. And so working with organizations like Jubilee South that was trying to eradicate debt in developing countries, because that was really crippling their economies. And so it was really interesting to kind of go from the tech landscape where there was so much money in London and it was really about excess and then go into a different environment where

It was people just struggling to feed themselves or their families. So it was interesting to see tech use in kind of two completely different situations.

Jason Elkins (14:16.586)
Right, right. I'm curious, like these days, these days, as we're recording this, you and I discussed before I pushed the record button, there's, you know, digital nomads, you've got some folks on your team that are basically working remotely. And I'm curious, as you were traveling, were you, would you go stay in Nepal or, or some place to work on site or were you working remotely as well, while you were traveling?

Richard (14:45.806)
I was working like in a conventional offices. So digital nomads didn't really exist You know, this was 20 years ago. So it was you know, my first yeah No, no

Jason Elkins (14:56.266)
Well, that's where I was wondering. I was wondering, like, are you like one of the first digital nomads? Because you're definitely you were doing tech and you're traveling. So now it's like, that means digital nomad. But.

Richard (15:04.494)
Yeah.

Yeah, no, I just got a visa and worked in London for the startup. And then I didn't get a visa for Argentina. I don't know how the heck. I remember to go to Uruguay one weekend. I think, I can't remember. I don't know if I did have a visa for Argentina. I can't remember. But yeah, it was basically I was working with this Quebecois company and I worked there in Quebec and they said, can you go down and help these folks down in Buenos Aires?

I was just like going to different offices and just going in there and trying to help them. Just like it was really simple, like just trying to get them a website or helping them made a bunch of computers that are all cratered. So just kind of doing really basic stuff. But the skills I had, you know, they didn't have them at that point in time. Now, now, you know, 20 years later, Argentina is like a hotbed for software development. You know, they've they've totally transformed from kind of like being behind North America in terms of tech development to be.

Jason Elkins (15:43.146)
Mm -hmm.

Richard (16:02.414)
just as good as we have here. So it's kind of interesting just to see the evolution of technology.

Jason Elkins (16:08.394)
Yeah. You know, it's, it's also interesting to have this conversation with you about the combination of technology and travel, because I heard you say, basically I got back into, I got into this business to kind of show that I still had tech jobs, you know, and I don't hear that that often when somebody speaks about getting in into adventure travel or back into it. usually there's not such a, you know,

desire to kind of like get back into the tech side because we don't think of that but it is important so let's I'd love to discuss kind of technology what's been going on lately how it's impacted your business how you think it's impacting adventure travel in general and just kind of any thoughts you might have around that

Richard (16:53.582)
Yes, so when I started 10 Hikes, it was mostly like a portfolio piece. Like, I can show people that I can still do this. And it turned into a business accidentally. But what I found, what I've seen in technology, if you kind of look at the last 25 years of technology and travel, it's about giving us more information. So you look at all these different marketplaces for booking hotels or booking day trips or flights and

Jason Elkins (17:04.298)
-huh.

Richard (17:21.262)
What any other than all the websites that give you here's your you know ten best days in in tokyo or you know how to go how to spend a week in france there's just so much content out there and actually it's actually worse it's stressful it's hard to understand what hotels are good because you can hotels there's always some terrible reviews even the best hotels and one of our customers was talking to me said actually looking travels worse now in twenty twenty four that it was.

you know, in the 1990s when you just had a phone and like a guidebook because there's just so much bad information out there. There's so much stuff that's written by AI or written by a content farm of people who have never even been to the destination. And so with 10 Adventures, we didn't want to just bring more information because we think that problem's been solved. You know, there's all these different sites that just give you more information. What we want to do is just think, how can we make it easier? And what people want is they want this private

vacation like they have with you know when they do it themselves, but they don't want all the stress of trying to say where you know where should I go? Where should I stay? How do I get my luggage transferred? How do I rent all this equipment? If I want a guide, how do I find a good guide? So our model was how to simplify all this and give people this authentic personal experience of traveling only with your loved ones, but do it affordably and have someone organize it all for you. And by doing that what we do is you bring in great local tour operators and guides that know the regions.

that plan the trip but don't have these huge overheads that you find in luxury brands around the world that do this. So we kind of let people travel like the 1 % but just pay a regular price. It's kind of the same price as paying for a group tour of getting this private trip planned for you. And so people just love it. And they're kind of like, where has this always been? This is how we want to travel all the time. And another guest said, it's like we've developed a third way to book travel.

You can do it yourself. You could join a group tour or now there's this new way. Some will just plan your whole trip for you and you know your partner or your family or your friends and it's like a totally new way of traveling. So it's kind of great when talking to our customers and they realize just how unique this is and how wonderful it is for them to get these you know these incredible incredible trips.

Jason Elkins (19:39.21)
Do you, I don't want to discount the advances and the way you do it now is much different, but as I hear you, I think of it's, it kind of seems like it's gone full circle to a certain extent where back, you know, before we had all these different options, if you had a trusted travel provider, a trusted travel agent that was knowledgeable, you could go there and they would help you do a lot of that stuff.

not, not to the same level. I'm not suggesting that because I know it's different, but, it feels, it feels some kind of like it's come around a full loop to doing, you know, the kind of the curated stuff that you're working on the customized stuff. and where I'm going with this is I think of like, I mentioned earlier, I was doing real estate, in Arizona for awhile and there's the Zillow effect.

of trying to work with a client that has access to Zillow and Redfin and all these different websites. And they can go find all these different houses and they see whatever the agent that took the photos or wrote up the description, that's what they see, but it can be very, very overwhelming. And I feel like in my experience in that, it's like it got harder for people to actually find a home. It used to be you'd go find a real estate agent, you'd describe what they want and they would take you to three houses and you'd pick one.

Richard (21:01.23)
Hehehehe

Jason Elkins (21:02.09)
You know, and then it became, you know, you're sitting on the couch on a Friday night flipping, going through Zillow and you're trying to, you know, send off 15 messages. I want to see this house tomorrow. I want to see this house tomorrow. And it became very, very complicated. And I feel like the whole sales process got much longer because there was, you know, kind of that information overload or option analysis by paralysis or paralysis by analysis, all that stuff. And even, you know, we look at things like.

the younger generation and they're dating in relationships, you know, with all the options that they have available on their phone to meet people. And now we've got this situation where there's, you know, younger people are not getting married. They're not, you know, there's a lot of them that just don't have relationships or don't want relationships because the landscape has changed. And I feel like that applies a little bit to travel as well, because like you said, there's so much information out there.

and if you're the type that, that likes to analyze things to death, you can spend days just trying to figure out which hotel you want to stay in, you know, because, here's another one. Here's another one. Here's another one. And, and you can spend an awful lot of time. And when you'll have a week or two of each year to go have a nice vacation, you know, I, I don't know. I, I'm not sure where I'm. Yeah, good.

Richard (22:21.614)
Yeah, no, it's yeah, I totally see where you're going. I think it's a really good point about the impact of just the complexity in our lives. And, you know, one thing when I look at historical travel agents, they had a bit of knowledge, but, you know, the biggest thing is they were in your city and they knew how to use the systems to book all the accommodations. But often they wouldn't necessarily know if you want to go to Vietnam. They wouldn't. They'd never been there. You know, they, you know, might have a little

you know, a do -it -hang that tells them how to do it. But they did make, they did have some knowledge. They had more than you, and so they made that helpful. What we're doing is we are bringing local tour operators that specialize in serving this really complex travel product, which is, you know, adventure travel is just hard because you're not, it's not going Milan to Florence to Rome. It's like, how do you walk in the mountain paths and know which paths to take? Or how do you find the territory roads that have no traffic so you can, you know, have a great week long

hiking holiday in Tuscany. So they're bringing all this complexity, but it's a local person that knows it. And so they have these great insights of, you got to stop at this farm. They've got great cheese or, you know, you've got to stop at this restaurant. They make the best, the best breads or the best pizza. And they're actually giving you, it's almost like having like a, when you, you know, when you travel and you meet some friends who are living in a city and, you know, they show you around, you're like, this is incredible. I never would have done anything.

You know that's what we're trying to do, but with the really high standard that it's known your friends aren't going to forget to do things. It's a professional tour operator that does it, but it's kind of trying to bring that aspect of someone who's like a travel agent. They can arrange everything for you, but they're also local and so they can share their favorite parts and share parts that other you know other travelers like you have found. But you're right, like I even hear people saying I'd love to find a good travel agent. Because it's just it's a pain to book all this stuff and.

My parents actually still use a travel agent, granted they're booking cruises and kind of more standard products. But yeah, there's a desire of just removing complexity from our lives because everything, you know, look at Apple. Apple's kind of their whole business is we take this complex product and just kind of make it simple. You know, the iPhone just kind of works across all the devices. The MacBook just kind of works. And you know, you look at all the different, you know, Samsung or Android options for phones or all the different Windows options.

Jason Elkins (24:33.162)
Mm -hmm.

Richard (24:43.534)
And it's confusing, there's so many choices. And Apple just says, we'll give you three choices. You're gonna pay twice as much, but we'll give you three choices and everyone buys it because it's just so simple. So I think there's something we can learn about just the value of simplicity.

Jason Elkins (24:57.13)
No, you're absolutely right. I was in Bali last year and stupidly got my phone very wet. I was riding on a scooter and it rained and my phone got wet, destroyed. And I needed to replace the phone very quickly. And for a long time I'd been thinking, well, maybe I'll get a less expensive Android, but I just never really did the research. And then all of a sudden when it's like, I got to get a phone, I didn't have time, I didn't have the energy to explore all those opportunities. And it's like, well, I know that the Apple works.

Richard (25:05.678)
Hehehehe

Jason Elkins (25:26.346)
my iPhone, well, when it's dry, that I can go out and get another iPhone. I don't have to learn a bunch of new things. And you as a tour operator, if you can develop that relationship with your clients, it's like, well, I know that when I go on this 10 Adventures trip that I'm going to have a good experience. So why am I going to try and go to booking .com and do it myself? Or why am I going to try and?

You know, go to some of these various different websites to try and put something together when I know that Richard and his team can, can, can do it. They've been there. They're working with people that are on the ground and I, yeah, I get it completely. And there's some people that just will never do that. Some people just absolutely like to plan their own stuff. What do you, if they're listening to this, what any, any thoughts on advice, suggestions? should we talk them out of it? What's, what's going on?

Richard (26:20.046)
So I think everyone's got to travel the way they like The one thing I've learned, you know, my wife and I have spent a lot of time in Paris It took us like kind of five trips to Paris each one being about a week before we really learned Where the good stuff in Paris is and I think the hard part is if you're just going to one place for the first time It's hard to know where the good stuff is and so it's easy to find the popular stuff, you know

Jason Elkins (26:45.642)
Mm -hmm.

Richard (26:46.222)
But what's happening right now is the popular stuff, there's overtourism around the world. So you end up just being in these massive lines around a bunch of tourists and you're kind of, you know, just walking around and you kind of lose that sense of, wow, I'm discovering something. And so I think there's value in trying, you know, having a tour plan for you or getting off the beaten track just because you get to see something different.

Now the one thing I've noticed myself that I really like is I'm usually the guy that plans the trips. And so I actually like planning a trip, but I realized I don't like on the trip because I'm the guy that everyone comes to with questions or problems or, that hotel last night, my bed was like this. And I realized when I started using Ten Adventures, I could kind of just sit back. We all would have the app and know where to go. And there was a list we were told where to go each night and our meals. And it was just nice. Like I actually was

Person on the trip and enjoying myself and I was not like the unpaid guide trying to worry about when's the bus come? What's going on here? Did I did I book this right? And so it was kind of weird that for me the planning wasn't the benefit It was actually being on the trip. That was the benefit for me that I could you know I was on a holiday as opposed to working

Jason Elkins (28:02.282)
Yeah, absolutely. And there's one of the things I've learned through traveling really full time for the last, you know, almost two and a half years now is that before I would travel, you know, I worked in the tourism business, worked in the travel business. I go visit places. I'd have a great experience, but now I spend a longer period of time in a place. So I'm in Medellin, Colombia right now. I've spent quite a bit of time here. And the longer you spend in a place, the more you realize what you didn't know.

When you got here and you're like, wait a minute. Like the first week or two I was here were great. But realistically, if someone were to come visit me right now and we go out for a week or two, I know where to take them. I know the things you know, I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out where these things are. And that's that's kind of the same thing when you've got a local.

a local guide or partner that you work with that has that ability to, hey, come over, you know, there's this cool family over here. They've invited us over for dinner. Let's go do that. You know, it's stuff you're just not going to get if you just show up in a place for a week or two and you booked stuff through Airbnb or that type of thing. So yeah, I definitely get that.

Richard (29:10.99)
Yeah, I also think we focus on these active or adventure type trips. And so just like, for example, going on a walking trip in Tuscany for seven or 10 days is a totally different experience than going to Pisa, Florence, Siena. It's different because you're in the fields, you're going through little villages. When you sit down to eat,

You're having an authentic discussion with someone that's lived in that village. You know, it's not people move into the big city and you get to see a lot more and learn more about a smaller area. And it's really hard. You know, if you go to Florence and then, you know, Pisa and then Sienna, it's hard. You can't take it all in. You just kind of see this cool stuff, but you don't really experience it. Whereas on a cycling or a walking holiday, you really become part of that, that place you're visiting. And, and I think it makes it a different type of trip as well. And so.

it's a nicer way to travel. I think there's a reason why these, this type of travel is just exploding in popularity because people are tired of, you know, being on a bus and, you know, seeing the world through a pane of glass or just go in city to city to city. I remember when I was in my first trip in Europe, I'd meet these people that would do like seven days in Europe and they go Paris, Amsterdam, you know, Berlin, Prague, Venice, Rome or something. I'm like, how do you get all that done with their night trains and you know, what do you see?

If you go to Venice for six hours, what do you see? You see some stuff, but I feel like just going slower, it's just such a better way to travel. And as you say, spending two years, you really start to know the place you're in a way that you'd never know even with a week or two in Medellin.

Jason Elkins (30:54.794)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think of when I when I hear you discuss this, I think of like, I kind of call it the Instagram, Instagramization of travel, or whatever, where it's that, you know, we learn a lot or a lot of people learn a lot, or they think they learn a lot about travel by looking at Instagram. And they see these photos of, you know, pick a place Machu Picchu pick up, you know, pick a place they see somebody in their friend group has been and has this photo.

And they think, I want to, that's what it means to be able to travel the world. So I want to go to those places that I see on Instagram, which are the more popular places, but you don't always see the line of people standing, waiting to take that photo. And I've been to a few spots now where it's like, okay, I've seen photos of this Buddhist temple. And I think, man, I want to go there. That's going to be amazing. And then when you get there and you're standing in line for two hours, watching everybody take their turn to go up and do the selfie.

And it's like, man, I could have spent those two hours or the time and money to get there to go really have an authentic experience where I could really connect with people instead of standing in line. It's kind of like Disney World or Disneyland as well. I think a lot of times when people go there the first time, they're kind of like, not quite what I saw on Instagram.

Richard (32:12.238)
It's funny you mention that because where I am in the Canadian Rockies, there's this place called Lake Louise. It's famous. It's stunningly beautiful. There's like water that doesn't look real and glaciers and mountains all around. And I remember I haven't been there in a couple of years, but the last time I was there, you know, walking up there with my kids, we're going to go up, do a big hike. And so we're dressed in our hiking boots and backpacks and we're camping. We smell like campfire smoke. And as we come to the lake, it's, I bet you there's 200,

Jason Elkins (32:17.93)
yeah.

Richard (32:42.094)
And it's almost all you know women in these like really beautiful dresses With their looking out at the lake with their arm behind holding on to their you know partners hand and he or she's snapping a photo And I'm like this is it's like it's like I'm watching a comedy It's like just the same photo side by side by side, and I was like what what's going on? Why is everyone doing this? I'm not really big on social media, but then my wife's like let's go and look on Instagram We put in there. She founds finds a way to see like post nearby

Jason Elkins (32:54.698)
Mm -hmm.

Richard (33:11.726)
And it's literally just the same photo again and again. And I was like, why? Like to come to here, there's so much beauty and you can just sit and look or get to a different vantage point. But you're right, there's this aspect of it's not even, I don't even think even seeing it. It's getting a photo of yourself seeing it. And hey, I like taking family.

Jason Elkins (33:32.81)
for status or for whatever reasons they want to be seen as a world traveler. I don't want to judge anybody on their social media. And yeah.

Hehehehe

Richard (33:42.382)
But it's yeah, it's it's it's you know, and we take photos of our family so I get the desire but it was just it was interesting that so many people were experiencing this experiences in the exact same way with the exact same photo. And yeah, like going to Lake Louise now you can't you can't drive or you can if you get there at 5am they have a parking lot you can go the other lake nearby. They've closed the park and you got to take a bus there and it's it's Instagram or whatever Facebook. It is ruined that area in the sense that you can't go there.

You know, it's just it's it's overwhelmed now. Just there's so many people that want to see it. And so I think worldwide you see this this over tourism. Everyone's going to the same places. And so again, if you want to get off the beaten track a bit, that's where having a local can say, yeah, you know, go to Lake Louise, but go there at 6 in the morning. And then when you're done, maybe go hike up to Sherbrooke Lake or hike up to, you know, a different lake that might only be 10 or 15 minute drive away, but it's going to be just as beautiful. But instead of having 12 ,000 people, there might only be 12 people there.

Jason Elkins (34:42.826)
I think I really want to see the places that I cannot see on Instagram. You know, just in general, it's like if I can see it on Instagram, I probably don't need to go there. I'll just look at Instagram and okay, that was fun. That's beautiful. And now I'll go find some place. I'm notorious for when I travel. It's like I do not want to be in the popular touristy areas. In Medellin, we've got a neighborhood called Poblado. And if you were doing research, learning, you know, like I want to travel to Columbia, where should I go?

Richard (34:54.574)
Hehehe

Jason Elkins (35:11.018)
80, 90 % of everything you see is going to, well, the tourists usually stay in Poblado. That's the nicer neighborhood. That's where you should stay. That's just like it. And if you don't know any better, you're going to say, well, OK, I'm nervous about visiting a different country. I'm going to stay in Poblado. But I spent two weeks there. I'm like, OK, I'm out. I haven't been back because there's so many beautiful neighborhoods and places to be and little pueblos up in the mountains. And I mean, where are the Andes? Why would you want to hang out in a touristy touristy part of town? But

But yeah, if I can see it on Instagram, I don't need to go see it in person. I don't know. So.

Richard (35:46.222)
I think there's some aspect also of just like the unknown and just getting delighted. And when you're, when you're telling, you know, where you stay, it's also like, I like to just walk around cities with, you know, basically say, I'm going to walk north today or I'm going to walk, you know, Southeast and you just have these like little joyous occasions of, look at this cool building or, you know, you have find a great cafe or a great bakery. And I think, you know, the unknown for some people.

Jason Elkins (35:49.962)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (36:00.074)
Yeah.

Richard (36:12.526)
The unknown part of travel is actually where you get a lot of the joy. So going to the thing you've seen on video or social media, it's okay, but you kind of know what to expect. It's the unknown that is, I think, what really drives some people in and what they want to experience when they travel.

Jason Elkins (36:29.93)
Yeah, my mother would not like to hear me say this, but the truth is, is I'm out and about, right? In Asia, wherever I am, I tend to look for the dark alleyways, the like the streets that just like, I bet nobody walks down that street. That's where I should go. And I have found the most fascinating things. I was in Havana, standing in front of one of the popular restaurants thinking I need to go in here because this is where Ernest Hemingway used to hang out.

Richard (36:41.966)
Hehehehehe

Jason Elkins (36:58.282)
And some guy came up to me and said, I have a better place. I have a better place. I'm like, what are you talking about? Follow me. And I'm like, okay, sounds like an adventure. And I followed him. We went three blocks away. He took me up this really dark stairway up into this building and building in Havana. And it's like an apartment complex of some sort. And he knocks on this door. They opened the door and it said little apartment and the living room has two, two dining room tables in it.

Richard (37:05.87)
You

Jason Elkins (37:26.634)
If you want to call them dining room tables, maybe more like card tables. And it was like a little, like his black market restaurant or something. So, you know, he leads me in and sits me down and a lady comes out of the kitchen and like, you know, through a lot of broken Spanish, it was, you know, what do you want? I'm like, well, what do you have? And I'm getting whatever. And it was one of the best meals I ever had. And I was scared. I thought, I'm, I'm going to get robbed. I'm going to get beaten up and who this is going to be horrible.

Richard (37:32.27)
wow. Yeah, yeah.

Jason Elkins (37:55.594)
but I'm going to do it anyway because it might not be horrible. And it was amazing. And it was like $3 or something for dinner and a couple beers and the experience. So I always encourage people just take some chances. Yeah, I know bad things happen and I know that we constantly tell travelers to be careful, be aware of their surroundings. But boy, I don't know. Some of my best experiences have been when I'm not careful and not aware of

my surroundings. I'm sure you have experiences like that as well in your travels.

Richard (38:27.918)
Yeah, I also have a lot of muggings on my travel so. No, no, no, no, it's it's it's it's it's. But you know, even those experiences, you know it was, you know they got some money or you know. But it's it's it's part of like the memories and like I'll never forget those experiences. I travel a little bit differently in some cases. But.

Jason Elkins (38:30.762)
we should edit this. We should edit this whole part out. So.

Richard (38:55.726)
You know, it's for me, it's finding the balance of how do I, you know, have a really authentic experience, but also, okay, how do I not put myself in a bad position? You know, growing up in small town or a mid -sized town in Canada, when I started traveling, I was just unprepared for the real world. Like, you know, in this city, when I was a kid, you could walk across, you know, the city in the middle of the night and there's no, you know, no violence, no anything. So I learned that that's, you know,

Jason Elkins (39:13.002)
You

Richard (39:24.878)
small town or mid -town Canada is not the same as everywhere else in the world. When I moved to London, I got mugged three times in the first 18 months. And I just realized, wandering around after going out drinking with friends at two in the morning, that's not a great idea. Other parts of the world, you're like, yeah, not going out. Some places, you just gotta be a bit safer. But even with that, bad things happen. I remember...

Jason Elkins (39:32.682)
wow.

Jason Elkins (39:43.21)
Yeah, I think you're right.

Richard (39:53.646)
One of the reasons I started Ted Adventures was I used to be the guy that would go in the little like, you know, travel alley in whatever city I was in and, you know, hire a guide that way. And I'd have guides that would just, you know, leave us to find our own way because they'd want to go to the next town and get drunk. I also had one guide where they tried to extort us, you know, the last night they said, yeah, the bandits are here. You have to give us all your money. Thankfully I had, there was two US Marines on our trip.

Jason Elkins (40:02.858)
Mm -hmm.

Jason Elkins (40:12.266)
Mm -hmm.

Richard (40:20.494)
And they're like, we're gonna fight them. Where is their camp? We're gonna sneak out of there, these big bowie knives. And so actually the guide's like, shit, what's going on? And they're like, no, no, this is great. I'm itching for it. And they got their knives and the guide's like, no. So then the guide went and parlayed with these bandits who, I don't know if they existed, and they settled for taking the food we didn't eat. But you know, this happens, you know? So I realized, this practice of just showing up and finding a guide and.

Jason Elkins (40:20.586)
Mm -hmm.

Jason Elkins (40:29.226)
You

Jason Elkins (40:39.818)
huh.

Richard (40:47.726)
you know, some alley and assuming that they're going to take care of me. No, that's bad. Like I didn't know if that guy was any good or he seemed like a nice guy, but obviously his little racket was he, you know, like, what could I do? You know, like I'm just some person that comes through, he gets his fee, he steals all of our money. And then, you know, somebody else next day, somebody else comes into a shop and they don't realize what happened. And yeah, it's easy to get taken, taken advantage of if you're really trusting, which is something I,

Jason Elkins (40:55.082)
Mm -hmm.

Jason Elkins (41:15.786)
Yeah, I grew up in Wyoming. I grew up in Wyoming, which is kind of Southern Alberta. It's it's basically, yeah, I grew up in this mall and the trip to Cuba, by the way, was one of my first trips. So I probably was a little bit more trusting. but yeah, it's, yeah, I get it because, and at the same time, you know, certain things like alcohol, you know, can really make, you know, late nights, early mornings with alcohol, I think increases your risks.

Richard (41:18.126)
Okay, so yeah, you know where I'm coming from. Yeah.

Richard (41:27.758)
wow!

Richard (41:45.544)
100%.

Jason Elkins (41:45.642)
dramatically walking around at three in the afternoon, seeing a, a quiet little alleyway and walking down there is a little bit different deal. It doesn't mean you're not going to run into somebody that's might take advantage of you. And just, I mean, I know common sense is not common, but sometimes, you know, if your gut tells you, I think that one of the hardest things is people that haven't traveled a lot or haven't run into people that might take advantage of them. They just have a hard time saying no, you know,

Richard (42:13.166)
100 % agree. That's exactly me. It's like, I guess, you know, in Canada, you try and be polite and, okay, I guess I'm gonna go and then they rob you. Like, why did I go into that tunnel with that guy? That was kind of a stupid thing. It just allowed him to rob me. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (42:27.146)
That was dumb. And sometimes you're thinking like, I know I've done it a few times in my many times in my life, not just in travel, where somebody requests something of me and I don't want to do it. And I know I don't want to do it, but I'm like, well, I just need to do it. And then it bites me in the butt later on. And it's the same thing with travel. I think one thing that really helped me when I lived in Belize, I was managing a lodge there and we would go into Belize city, you know, once or twice a week.

and walk around and do the errands and get things for the resort and do business. And you're constantly being asked, you know, do you want this? Do you want that? Do you? It might be anything from drugs to a T -shirt to a tour or whatever. And I got very, very accustomed to just saying no, because I was doing it twice, twice a week for, you know, eight months we were there. And once you get to the point where you're comfortable saying no, I just feel like you're so much safer.

You know, somebody walks up to you on the street, tries to have a conversation with you. I'm just going to default to no. I'm sure that it would be an interesting conversation, but just going to default to no. And then, and choose your yeses wisely. So anybody that's thinking about traveling full time should start practicing with their friends and family. No, no, not interested. No, no, I do not want to tour. That was the thing in Belize. It was no, I do not want to tour. I wanted to get a shirt that said.

Richard (43:41.582)
Hehehehe

Jason Elkins (43:53.706)
and maybe sell the shirts, but just says, no, I don't want a tour. I think I could have made a lot of money selling those shirts, but anyway, so. But we've discussed quite a few things that I know there's so much more to discuss. I'm not sure which direction to go with it. So I'll just ask you, Richard, what did I forget to ask? What should I have asked that you want to make sure our listeners hear and understand either about you or about 10 Adventures or just your philosophies on life or anything that.

that you want to touch on before we wrap up.

Richard (44:26.158)
Yeah, I think one thing that's really interesting is just I talked a little bit the power of travel and especially what we focus on adventure travel where you're out, you know, often in places where you're not surrounded by people, it's just you and the people you're traveling with. And this time where we disconnect and we don't have all these things we need to do each day, this time where we can just, you know, spend the day walking with loved ones and just have these meandering discussions.

And then connect with these small villages or town with locals. I think there's something really important. Obviously there's the physical health aspect of just going on a walking holiday or a cycling holiday. Being active for five or six hours a day for seven to 14 days, it kind of resets your body. There's also the mental health aspect, which I think is really important of we're constantly surrounded with things we have to do. We have a to -do list that we've got to go.

do jobs, we've got emails coming in, text messages. We're kind of like overstimulated with things to do. But when you go and do a walking or cycling holiday, there's no lineups you have to get to. There's no trains or buses you have to catch. You start one day and it's all you're doing is walk into your next meal. And it's life becomes so simple. And when people do this, they're like, this is just, I feel incredible. Like they come back energized after walking for a week or two.

And then the third aspect is this time with loved ones. We never have this unstructured time day after day. If you think of when you see the people you care about, you meet them for dinner, you go see them for the holidays for a day or two. Even then there's all these activities you have to do. But when you're walking with somebody beside you or you're on a bike, you know, day after day, you end up getting to places and discussions that are just, we don't get anymore because we're always so busy. And there's something really powerful about travel that I don't

I think people are just starting to realize, especially this adventure travel. And I talk about this, I have a podcast as well, we're at episode 175. And what surprised me is this feeling I get of something just feels really right when I'm doing one of these trips. It's not just me, it's like everyone that does these. And whether or not it's your first bike tour and it's like, you know, seven days on a bike, which, you know, you're only doing 30 or 40 kilometers a day, or you're walking around the world over six and a half years.

Richard (46:48.782)
It's that same sense of my body feels great, my mind feels great, I'm having these great memories, I feel reinvigorated. And I think it's really interesting, just, you know, I never hear about how important travel is, but when I talk to these people in my pockets, when I talk to our customers, there's something just really, really important about this type of travel. And I think that's why it's growing so quickly. People do it once and they're kind of hooked. You know, you do one walking tour.

And you hear people that do the Camino, they do one Camino, and for the rest of their life, when they go on holiday, they're going walking because there's just something joyous about it. And yeah, I think that's something I wanted to share because I think it's just really, really interesting.

Jason Elkins (47:26.57)
You know, and it's not, it shouldn't be, it shouldn't.

Yeah. And I was, I was going to, as you were speaking, I was thinking about all of the, you know, I'm kind of into psychology and a lot of, there's a lot of research out there that discusses how marriages are better if, if you take a walk every day with your partner, you know, how, just the, the good hormones that get released when you just go for a walk, how it calms things down. So you've got just the walking aspect, obviously physical activity, but I think mostly I'm interested in.

the marriage gets better because you're walking with your partner. You know, you're sharing something, you're having a conversation. And if you can combine the benefits of the walk with seeing new things together, because shared experiences too, I mean, the shared experiences are so important. And when you're walking down a trail, let's say in Tuscany or wherever, and you're seeing new things and you're sharing new things, maybe it's a bug. I mean, I've had walks with friends, family members, my kids.

Richard (48:13.742)
100%.

Jason Elkins (48:30.058)
And sometimes it's just a bug, just an interesting looking bug that we find on a leaf or on a plant that creates this connection between the two of us. And instead of me taking selfies in front of Pisa, I'm taking pictures of some little, you know, green and orange bug on a leaf. And I'm so excited about it or a bird or something like that, that just, we'll always bring that connection. And then I've got those photos. I'd much rather look at photos like that. They remind me of these cool, unique places I've been with my kid then.

Richard (48:45.038)
Hehehehe

Jason Elkins (48:59.946)
than when I'm like almost embarrassed. I don't want to sound snobbish, but if I have I have some pictures of me standing in front of the Twin Towers and Kuala Lumpur and I had to stand in line to do it and I had to pay somebody five bucks to take the picture for me or whatever. And frankly, I'm kind of embarrassed by it. I don't know why that's my own issues. I need to work through my own issues. But it's like I don't get near as much of enjoyment out of seeing that photo as I do of the of the big I don't even.

Richard (49:13.166)
Yeah

Jason Elkins (49:29.642)
some sort of monitor that we saw in a park in Bangkok, you know, with my son that was just walking down the grass and we stopped and took pictures of that. That'll mean a hell of a lot more to me than a picture in front of the Twin Towers because I was with my son and because we saw something. I like the nature thing. So, yeah, I hope anybody listening to this go for a walk. I have not done a walking trip. I love to walk. I spend a lot of time walking when I'm in places, but walking every day sounds pretty cool.

Richard (49:51.182)
It is, it is.

Richard (49:55.15)
Every day and just yeah, it's it's also you know, if you like to eat the local food when you're walking all day you can you can try all the different desserts you could try all the different food and Yeah, and it's it's you know, you're in these trips You're making the memories whether or not they're the stories you tell when you go out for dinner with your son Or it's the photos that go on your wall or on your home screen that were that pop up in your I know My google photos has the memories that pop up and it's like, wow. Look at this. You know, this is like I don't

Jason Elkins (50:00.042)
Mm -hmm.

Jason Elkins (50:05.034)
yeah, that's true.

Jason Elkins (50:21.354)
Mm -hmm.

Richard (50:24.942)
think of, you know, nostalgically about cars I owned or TVs I owned, which are also big, you know, big things we spend money on. But it's the travel in these moments of, you know, a bug or a great cappuccino or my wife and I still talk about, a, apple strudel we got on the top of a mountain in the Dolomites in a refugio six years ago. It was that good. And so it's like, you know, but that, that I think what, what's what travel is about is these shared memories. You can have some

Jason Elkins (50:46.986)
Yeah.

Richard (50:53.774)
You know have a laugh with people you love and you know have things that make you smile when days kind of suck or you know when you can't travel

Jason Elkins (51:01.418)
Yeah, very cool. Well, that's a good place to end it. I don't think we can top that. So Richard, thank you so much for coming and sharing some of your insights and knowledge and a little bit about your life. And I'm sure our listeners are inspired and your website will be in the show notes. So anybody listening to this that wants to go check out 10 Adventures or or click through and listen to your podcast. I would definitely encourage folks to do that as well. You said one hundred and seventy five episodes now.

Richard (51:28.718)
175 episodes. So yeah, it's like my little COVID baby that I can't give up because I enjoy it so much. And yeah, just different people. And actually the last probably month or two is almost all been around meaning and like how people find meaning in travel, how they live their lives, kind of like living unconventional lives and you know, how travel is dictating that. So for me personally, it's, it's really intellectually stimulating and just talking to interesting. It's like today, you know, talking with someone else who loves travel, like

Jason Elkins (51:41.034)
cool.

Richard (51:57.806)
There's something just fun about it that makes me happy. And so yeah, I've enjoyed our little chat here. Jason, thanks for inviting me to come on the show.

Jason Elkins (52:06.762)
Well, thanks, Richard. I look forward to hearing many of your episodes, if not all, probably all of them, because I do like to listen. And and I got to tell you, one hundred seventy five. That's when I first started doing this podcast. I had a few people I reached out to that were podcasters and I suggested maybe they come on my show and they said, well, let me know when you get to 10, because apparently the vast majority of people that start podcasts don't make it past 10. I think we're on this episode's probably 70 or 80. So I'm with it, too. I'm going to stick with it.

Richard (52:35.086)
Hehehehehe

Jason Elkins (52:36.458)
And, but I acknowledge how much time and effort goes into producing a show like that. And so congratulations on that and look, look forward to connecting with you and collaborating on projects in the future. Thanks, Richard.

Richard (52:43.854)
Thanks

Richard (52:49.038)
Thanks, Jason.