Adventure Travel with Alan Feldstein - Infinite Safari Adventures

Area/Topic
Africa, Safaris, Conservation, Business

Alan Feldstein
Founder & Owner
Infinite Safari Adventures

For two decades, Alan Feldstein worked as a successful entertainment and marketing/advertising attorney in Los Angeles. In 2000 after racking up 450,000 frequent flyer miles he asked his wife where she wanted to go in the world.  She replied “I have always wanted to go on a safari in Africa”.  That trip to Africa it changed his life.  In 2005 he summited Mt. Kilimanjaro and then tracked chimps in the Mahale Mountains.  It was there he met his future East African Ground Partner who shared a love of kayaking.  In 2008 he took his children to Africa and on that trip became one of the first people to kayak off the coast of Tanzania.  It was there and then that he decidedto leave the practice of law and share his passion for Africa and adventure to create Infinite Safari Adventures.

Alan is a member of the Adventurer’s Club of Los Angeles and the international Explorers Club where he was the Southern California Chapter Chair. He also sits on the boards of the Cheetah Conservation Fund, Saving The Survivors, and The Bird School Project. In 2023 he and his wife, Journalist Diane Haithman, founded the Infinite Safari Foundation which is dedicated to humanitarian, educational and conservation initiatives in Africa.  It is funded, in part, from a donation of the cost of each Infinite Safari Adventure safari that is created.  He is also the author of The Best African Safari - Tips from an Obsessive Planner a definitive guide to help people plan their best safari.

https://www.infinitesafariadventures.com/

summary
Alan Feldstein, founder of Infinite Safari Adventures, shares his journey from being a lawyer to starting a safari company in Africa. His passion for travel and adventure led him to explore different parts of the world, including Africa. He fell in love with the wildlife and the people of Africa, which inspired him to start his own safari company. Alan emphasizes the transformative experience of visiting Africa and the importance of unplugging from technology to fully immerse oneself in the beauty of the continent. He also highlights the positive impact of tourism on local communities and the need for responsible travel. The conversation explores the importance of tourism in Africa for conservation and community development. It highlights the role of tourism in inspiring governments to prioritize conservation and the economic benefits it brings to local communities. Human-wildlife conflict is identified as a major challenge, and various solutions such as education, community involvement, and innovative technologies are discussed. The conversation also touches on the issue of overtourism and the need for responsible tourism practices. The personal connections and cultural experiences that travelers can have in Africa are emphasized, along with the reminder to seize the opportunity to visit Africa now.

takeaways

• Passion for travel and adventure can lead to unexpected opportunities and career paths.
• Africa offers a transformative experience for travelers of all ages.
• Unplugging from technology allows for a deeper connection with nature and the local culture.
• Tourism plays a crucial role in supporting local communities and economies in Africa. Tourism plays a crucial role in inspiring governments to prioritize conservation and in providing economic benefits to local communities in Africa.
• Human-wildlife conflict is a major challenge that needs to be addressed through educatio

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Transcript

Jason Elkins (00:01.121)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. Today we've got an adventurer, Alan Feldstein. He is the founder and owner of Infinite Safari Adventures. Alan, so happy to have you on the show.

Alan Feldstein (00:15.96)
So happy to be here. Thanks for having

Jason Elkins (00:18.817)
First question right out the gate. didn't have this planned, but I want to know. You're in California,

Alan Feldstein (00:24.542)
I am. I'm in Studio City, California.

Jason Elkins (00:28.361)
and infinite safari adventures is clearly not something you're probably selling tours in California, correct?

Alan Feldstein (00:36.052)
No, and actually that's a funny story because Google has me listed in Los Angeles and every week I get calls from people wanting to do a safari in Los Angeles and I need to explain to them, no, we do safaris in Africa and they go, what? So yeah, but no, don't

Jason Elkins (00:54.413)
Are you open to a little business consulting right at the moment? I think you get to partner up with some tour operator in Los Angeles that does something that they call safaris. So you can at least make some referrals or something. Well, we're going to dig a little deeper into your connection with Africa. We're going to definitely discuss Africa. frankly, I'm mostly interested in your story. How did you get from where you were, wherever that was, to where you are now?

Alan Feldstein (00:57.89)
Sure!

Jason Elkins (01:23.211)
So sometimes that goes all the way back to young childhood. Sometimes it goes back to previous generations and family members, but how far back do we need to go to kind of get a feel for how did you end up doing this?

Alan Feldstein (01:34.018)
Yeah, not very far back. I guess the first thing I tell people is that while I've always been adventuresome, I've never been an adventurer, but Africa was purely a matter of fluke and fate. am, which I like to proudly call myself a recovering lawyer. I practiced law for a number of years and I was involved in

in the dietary supplement industry. And because of that, I would constantly be doing battle with the food and drug administration over a variety of things. And we got into a big controversy with them. And because I had young children at the time, and I was responsible for them on the weekends, what I would do is I would take a red eye on Wednesday evening, land in DC on Thursday morning. I was lobbying at the time.

and work all day Thursday and then take the 6 p .m. flight back to Los Angeles so that I'd be there on Friday. And because of that, I racked up 400 ,000 frequent flyer miles. And in

Jason Elkins (02:42.283)
Holy cow, you were doing that like every week?

Alan Feldstein (02:45.8)
just about twice a month. so, and plus, since FDA wasn't being successful in Washington, they opened up fronts in Austin, Boston, Lincoln, Nebraska. So I was literally flying all over the country. And I had a lot of miles. And I said to my wife, we can go anywhere in the world. Where do you want to go? And she said, you know, I've always wanted to go on a safari in Africa. So I said, great.

Let's go. So that was in 2000. And as she likes to say, on the first day, the giraffes had me at Jumbo, which is hello in Swahili. I saw giraffes and just absolutely was, was blown away. And as she also says, cause she's a writer journalist said, you know, we went for the wildlife, we come back for the people. And so in 2005, I went and climbed Mount Kilimanjaro for my

50th birthday, so everybody can do the math and after coming down off the mountain, I met my wife in Mahale, which is the mountains in Tanzania and we went tracking chimps near where Jane Goodall does her research and it was an incredible experience. But the manager of the lodge and I were having a beer one night.

And he said, when you're not here, what do you like to do? And I said, well, I'm an avid kayaker. And he goes, really? So am I. Do you want to go kayaking tomorrow on Lake Tanganyika? Which I did. And from that, we became friends. And in 2008, my children had graduated from college and high school, and I decided to take them to Africa on safari. He had left the lodge, and he came up with the idea of building two kayaks, because they just didn't exist in

And with my design input, he built them and he and I became the first people to kayak off the coast of Tanzania in 2008. And it was on that trip with my children that I said, you know, do what you're passionate about. Don't worry about money. Money will follow. Just make sure you love what you do. And I thought to myself one day sitting on the beach in Pangani, Tanzania, you know, maybe I should follow my own advice. So I came home and said to my wife, hey, guess what? We're starting a safari company.

Alan Feldstein (05:10.004)
And so that's how I got

Jason Elkins (05:13.311)
It's interesting how sometimes we need to hear ourselves say something before we register. can roll around in our head all we want, but until it actually leaves our lips, it's really hard to kind of hear it. So good, I'm curious, so how did your kids take the advice? What are they doing

Alan Feldstein (05:32.418)
Thanks for asking. They're phenomenal. I'm very proud. My daughter does public policy work in California. And my son is an outdoor education teacher and runs what's called the Sierra Institute through San Francisco State, which is an outdoor education classroom in the Sierra. So he has an ideal job. He works nine months of the

near campus and three months he lives in the Sierras. So yeah, he's doing

Jason Elkins (06:05.121)
Do you think that he would have kind of went that path? Had you not taken him to Africa? Had you not had that conversation? Had you not set the example by kind of following your dream? Or do you think that had an impact on it? Or what do you think?

Alan Feldstein (06:20.354)
I think it had an impact. I don't think it was the be all and end all of it, but I do think that it just opened up. And that's why I love taking people to Africa because I think it's a transformative experience, regardless of your age and stuff. But I always do tell people who are bringing their children, there is no greater gift, I think, than you can bring, give your children, but bringing them to Africa. And I say that for a couple of reasons. First of all, when you get there, guess what? You have to unplug.

which is nice. That's becoming less and less these days, but I do think that, you know, you don't sit there on your phone or your iPad or any computer the whole time, number one. Number two is I think you get to see a different perspective of the world that we don't get to see here in the United States. You know, there are people there who have very little, who are much happier than we are. And you sort of learn the lessons of that. You learn the lessons

Jason Elkins (07:16.033)
Mm

Alan Feldstein (07:20.162)
They're very much community oriented. Everybody looks out for one another. So I really do think it has an impact on everybody who goes

Jason Elkins (07:31.411)
I'm do you think you mentioned kind of going there and being unplugged? And I know there's technic, technological reasons that someone might be kind of more unplugged or less plugged in, but I suspect there's other things, you know, I've been to Africa a couple of times and honestly, I had never, there was so much to see and do and experience that looking at Instagram or looking at my phone just did not even seem appealing. Do you think that's part of

Alan Feldstein (07:58.734)
Exactly. I do definitely think that's part of it and stuff. you know, it's interesting as technology has improved, you know, in the, you know, 15 years, I or 20, 24 years, I've been going to Africa 15 years, running the company. Sure, there's much more connectivity these days than there was then. And it's a discussion that we all have in the industry, particularly large owners, what do you

Some lodges still fight and don't have internet, but that's a real problem for people. I think the best solution I've ever seen was a lodge in Botswana that had a small windowless room, and that was the only place that you could get Wi -Fi. So you had to go in there. It was hot. It was stuffy. You'd go in, you'd connect, you'd download all your emails, and then you'd leave. And being unconnected,

draft all your replies, then you'd go back in the room and upload them. But what it did is it stopped people from sitting there, you know, watching cat videos on Instagram, you know, on their computer in the evening and stuff. And instead sit there and watch these beautiful African sunsets or watch animals come to the watering hole or all the other things that are going on around you. I thought that was the best solution.

Jason Elkins (09:22.335)
Yeah, so it's available, but you got to really want it. And there's a lot of incentive to sit out on the patio and, like you said, watch the sunsets, communicate with the other guests. What do you think it's done to... So we talk about technology and the connectivity. What do you think it's done for the local people that live in these communities and how they see and engage with tourists either from the US or from Europe?

Alan Feldstein (09:26.037)
Exactly.

Jason Elkins (09:49.665)
where before they didn't have this, maybe these preconceived ideas of what everybody was like, but now they've, you know, a lot of the locals have thongs and they see Instagram, they see social media. Do you think it's changed the way that they interact with the guests that you bring over?

Alan Feldstein (10:05.262)
do. That's a really good question. You know, it's funny, my first guide was named Kumbi. I have no idea what happened to Kumbi. Because when we parted ways, we parted ways and there was no way to stay connected back in 2000 and stuff. Nowadays, I can WhatsApp anybody anywhere anytime and they do too.

One of the best stories I think to illustrate that was several years ago, I was sitting in Kenya talking to a young Maasai warrior and they all have phones. And I asked him that specific question, how has this changed your life? And he was about 18 years old, I guess. And he said, when I was 13, I had to walk 25 kilometers to a neighboring village to tell relatives that a family member had

Today I can pick up the phone and call them. The funny part is, is after he said that, he then complained that his parents didn't know how to operate the phone and he had to keep teaching them how to do it. So that is a worldwide problem that exists. But everybody in Africa now has WhatsApp pretty much, know, has phones and is connected. And so...

I stay in contact with my guides all the time, there are people, staff members and stuff of lodges that stay in touch with people through WhatsApp and through Facebook. It's definitely changed.

Jason Elkins (11:44.205)
Do you think that in any way it's, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but do you think that possibly it could also be a negative thing? So here's what I'm imagining is I'm imagining somebody in a community that's had access maybe to some tourists, some visitors that come in. So most of their attitudes and opinions about the tourists and visitors or the countries where they come from is based on the people they're engaging with.

once they are spending more time on Instagram and their social media and they see maybe a different side of, I'm going to say American culture, just because we're both from here. And I wonder if it's changed their attitudes about tourists from the US, for example. Have you seen that or what do you think?

Alan Feldstein (12:33.858)
I don't think so at all. mean, I would tell you that, you know, just everybody there has, that I come in contact with has such good hearts and stuff. They don't. They are much more aware, I will tell you that. And I'll tell you an amusing story with respect to that.

I do a lot of giving back and I paid for the college education of a Maasai warrior in Kenya to go to college. And we can talk a little bit about that later. But when I visited him, when I visited him, we go out with maybe 10 or so of his friends and walk in the bush and have lunch and stuff like that. And one of them, a good friend of his who also went to college is very much into politics.

And in 2016, I happened to be in Kenya. And Joseph said to me, Alan, I have a question for you. He says, Hillary Clinton got more votes than Trump, right? And I went, yes, Joseph, he did. But she's not president. I said, no, Joseph, she's not president. And he says, why is that, Alan? And before I could think, I said, well, we have something in the United States called the Electoral

Jason Elkins (13:39.072)
you

Alan Feldstein (13:53.23)
And then I thought to myself, no, I don't want to say that because I know what the next question is going to be. Alan, what is the electoral college? I can't explain it to myself. Now I'm trying to explain it to a Maasai warrior. So I said to Joseph, that's a very difficult question. Let me think about it. And about a half an hour later, it pops into my head. said, Joseph, here's your answer. See all of us sitting around here? There's 10 of us. We all live in different villages.

Jason Elkins (14:00.663)
Yeah.

Alan Feldstein (14:21.592)
We need to elect a chief of all the villages, but your village has more votes than anybody else combined. So you will always get to select the head chief and everybody's not going to be happy about that. That's the Electoral College.

Jason Elkins (14:38.253)
That's a good explanation. Yeah, I like that.

Alan Feldstein (14:39.766)
And he goes, he pauses, he thinks about it and he goes, okay, but Hillary did get more votes than Trump, right? So yeah, so they're much more aware of what's going on in this country than they used to be. But I don't think it's changed their attitudes at all because...

Alan Feldstein (15:03.394)
They're meeting us one -on -one. We're meeting them one -on -one, and that's what's

Jason Elkins (15:08.193)
Yeah, no, very, very well said. I guess the question came out of I've noticed through the years in my travels for for quite a while early on when I really started traveling internationally, I would introduce myself as Jason and they would look at me and they would make some comment about Friday the 13th, which I don't even know that much about Friday the 13th. But apparently there was a character in the movie named Jason, who was a scary dude. And that was the connection immediately. Like no matter where I went, they're like, Jason,

Friday the 13th, whatever. And that slowly went away. And I don't know if it's just because the movie is older and new generations, but I also think it's the exposure to American culture was a lot of times just through the movies. That was their impression of American culture. And now they've got so many different ways to access it. And now the question I hear is, why does everybody in the United States have a gun? You know, why are they shooting at each

and it must be a very dangerous place. And where in the past, maybe they used to aspire to go to the States, but now I run into a lot of, and I'm in Columbia. I spent a lot of time in Columbia and the Colombians are like, the U .S. sounds very dangerous. And I don't want to go there because it sounds dangerous. And it's just because of social media, because of the things that they're exposed to. So it's been kind of interesting over the years, just watching how they shift. And of course, politics, they want to know who did you vote for?

Alan Feldstein (16:33.474)
Yep. Yeah, definitely. No, it's true.

Jason Elkins (16:36.493)
We kind of don't generally ask each other that in the States directly, but here when I travel, I'm in Colombia. Are you a Trump supporter? Are you a Biden supporter or whatever it is? And it's interesting that that's what they want. That's what they're curious about, because that's what they see so much in the social media. So it's just an interesting, interesting thing. But so. I'm curious, before this trip where you had all these air miles saved

Did you have at any point in your life where you're like, really want to travel? Was that ever a thing for you? Or is it just, I've got a lot of points to use up and I don't know what to do with

Alan Feldstein (17:14.06)
No, travel has always been very important to me. My father traveled constantly in his work, particularly to Asia. So I always had a love of travel. As a family, we didn't travel much outside of a very small circle, but I actually dropped out of college in the middle of my time at UCLA, sold everything I owned, bought a round trip plane ticket.

a Uriel pass and Arthur Fromer's book, Europe on $10 a day, and traveled until I had 35 cents in my pocket and came home. And it was basically, I think from that point forward that I always did a lot of traveling. Was Africa ever on my radar? Not really. I mean, I was a big Hemingway fan. I still am. So I would read, you know, I'd read his books and stuff, particularly

you know, like the snows of Mount Kilimanjaro and that sort of thing. And so I had an affinity for Africa. had an affinity for wildlife, but I wasn't, didn't have the passion. It really was being on that trip and seeing Africa in person that just, you know, resonated with me. can't explain it. I don't look like a typical person from Africa.

I had no experience, no family, no nothing. But it just, when I was there, it felt like

Jason Elkins (18:48.589)
It seems I felt that I felt the same way I was. I fell in love. I I fell in love with Namibia and I was trying to get my wife. I'm like we can move to Namibia. She thought I was totally crazy, but I if she had said yes, I'd probably be still married to her. I shouldn't say it that way. She's a wonderful woman, but yes, I'm curious. So I don't want to put words in your mouth, but almost kind of what I heard or I could imagine hearing

I was going to school at UCLA. I dropped out of school, bought a ticket to Europe to go travel around. That's kind of what I heard. That's not exactly what you said, but that's the story I created in my head. Would you change that story, or is that pretty much what

Alan Feldstein (19:33.868)
Yeah, no, that's what

Jason Elkins (19:35.935)
Okay, so now what did your parents think when you did

Alan Feldstein (19:39.658)
They weren't thrilled. They asked me, you know, are you coming back to finish school? That was the only commitment that I made that I would come back. I certainly thought about it, you know. I spent a lot of time on the island of Ibiza and I could have stayed there probably for the rest of my life. But I made that commitment to come back and finish school. you know, and then sort of got into the typical

American dream scenario, marry, children, house, all that sort of stuff. And so I traveled, but not as much as I would have probably wished I had. But it still was nagging at me all the time. And that's when I got married again and we had the ability and freedom to travel, we did. And now I'm proud to say I've been on all seven continents.

you know, and have had some amazing experiences and stuff. But there was a 10 year period where I went nowhere other than Africa. And I would go three, four times a year just because it just kept drawing me. just had to, you know, I would go, I'd come home, I'd be tired. I'm glad to be home. And then about two, three weeks later, it was like, okay, when am I going back?

And that's when I really knew that this was a passion.

Jason Elkins (21:13.867)
get it. What do you think it is about the African people? And I haven't traveled extensively through Africa like you have, but what do you think it is about them that, cause like you said, you maybe go for the animals, you come back for the people. said something like that. And I agree. I was, it was fascinating to see the animals in the wildlife, but it was the people that I fell in love with. was, I was shocked by just how welcoming and friendly everybody is. And what do you think that is that created

Alan Feldstein (21:42.264)
I don't think we have enough time and there's probably even volumes written on this, but I would say there's a few things. Number one is...

These are people who always have to totally rely more on themselves and their community than say their government, number one. Number two is they still to this day, most Africans speak three languages. They speak their tribal language. Like in East Africa, they speak their tribal language, they speak Swahili and they speak English. They still have that tribal roots to themselves.

Whereas a tribe we stick together. We look out for one another. We take care of one another and I also think that there's a a Feeling yes, I want to strive. want to succeed. want to acquire more but I don't it's not the be -all and end -all for for me and To illustrate that I've got lots of illustrations Patrick

My Maasai son is what I call him, used to work for the Kenyan Parliament in Nairobi. He'd wear a suit and tie every day and five days a week. And then on the weekends, he'd go home and look after his flock of goats and cows and stuff and live in a Boma with no electricity, no running water dressed as a typical Maasai. And one weekend he's up there and a car drives up and a woman gets out and she's

very upset and very angry and he goes, what's wrong? And she goes, well, I'm this very upset. You people have no electricity, no running water. My country's not doing enough for you. This is just terrible. You can't live like this. And Patrick said, well, where are you from? And she said, I'm from America. And he says, well, first of all, I'm Kenyan. And second of all, I feel sorry for you. And she went, what? He goes, yeah, I feel sorry for you because you have so much stuff.

Alan Feldstein (23:45.304)
So all you do is worry about stuff. I have no stuff. I have nothing to worry about. I wake up every morning, I have a view of Mount Kilimanjaro. My kids are well fed, they're healthy, they go to school. At the end of the day, we as a community, we sit down, we talk, we laugh, we sing, we dance. We have a great time. We don't worry about stuff. And I think that's another reason why I love

hanging out with the African people is they're just their mindset for the most part. And I'm generalizing and in the cities, in the stay and age, there's still the same issues that we have here and maybe even worse at times. But bottom line is most people there just have a great outlook on life, I guess is what I would

Jason Elkins (24:36.673)
Yeah, no, that's very well said. What do you, other than what we've already discussed here, people that have not been to Africa before, because there is some deep dark Africa. It's scary. lot of, not disparaging Americans in general, but we have, a lot of us don't have passports and have never, haven't left the country.

So the concept of going to a place like Africa just so far away and these stories and ideas they have in their head, how do you counsel? I don't know if counsel is the right word, but

Alan Feldstein (25:12.738)
No, it's a good word and you

I hope that my passion comes across, number one. Number two is I hope that my knowledge of Africa makes them feel safe. Because I tell people, I'm not sending you anywhere or have you do anything that I haven't been or done myself. And so you can trust me that I'm not just selling you a trip, I'm selling you an experience that I think is very important that you do. And yeah, is it safe?

Is there wifi? What about bathrooms? How do I get there? I you know, I answer all of these questions all the time. and then once I get people who say, okay, now I want to go. A lot of times the next question I get asked is, why should I go with you? They're, you know, I go on the internet and I can find lots of different places that'll, that'll book trips. And I tell them, I come from a place of passion about this.

Number two is we do a lot of giving back. My wife and I have a foundation. So when you book with us, a portion of your safari cost gets donated in your name to our foundation. And we use that money. We've, you know, bought anesthesia machines for vets. We've sent kids to school. We've, we, I'm on the board of trustees. You mentioned Namibia, the cheetah conservation fund in

I'm on the board of directors of Saving the Survivors, which is a rhino, large animal rescue and care organization in South Africa. We support a young theater company in Zambia that goes to villages and teaches them about AIDS awareness through really clever theater productions. I fed Masai during the drought, I've built water wells. mean, all these things, not to brag, but to show people

Alan Feldstein (27:12.758)
look, when you go, you're giving back to the community as well. And I think that's one of the particularly with Americans that they want to see is, you know, we're very fortunate, we're very blessed to live in this country, we have an abundance here. We want to sometimes give some of that back and I'm a big believer in

Jason Elkins (27:32.109)
I don't know if this is a direction you want to go, as I listen to you speak, I believe that there is a segment of the traveling market that doesn't want to go anywhere that they feel bad, doesn't want to go anywhere where maybe they see poverty or they see struggles or they see things and they feel like they won't be able to help.

And so as I listen to you, it's kind of opens up an opportunity to feel like, okay, I don't know what to do to help, but I know that if I book with somebody like you, Alan, that does kind of know what to do, does kind of know where to put those resources and can kind of help me do that. It gives me an opportunity to kind of enjoy my trip a little bit more, feel like I'm doing something.

Alan Feldstein (28:22.316)
Yes. No, think you're, you're right, Jason. think that, that, that does help. But also a lot of times people come back and say, okay, I get it now. You know, how can I, how can I do more? How can I help? And, you know, I'm all about that as, you know, as well. A lot of my clients come back and say, like, I have a client that came back from me last year. He saw what I did for Patrick.

he's now sending a messiah warrior to college. And the thing about my foundation, it's very small. And so people see a direct impact and a hundred percent of their dollars go to that. There's no executive director taking a fat salary and having expense account lunches or anything like it's a hundred dollars goes in, a hundred dollars goes out kind of thing. I also think that people are

Jason Elkins (28:53.527)
Very cool.

Alan Feldstein (29:19.724)
when they go to Africa and are expecting the conditions to be, and you've been there so you can understand and appreciate this, they're going to be roughing it. And I tell people, you're going to be sleeping in a tent. Tent is not a four letter word in Africa. know, beds, showers and toilets that flush, you know, and in some places it's almost too much, you know, in some of the places. tourism is, and here's the other thing I want

get out and explain is it's so important for us to go for a lot of reasons. But one of those reasons is tourism is probably in the top three to five sources of revenue for every country in Africa. So like during the pandemic, my guides had no stimulus checks, no unemployment insurance.

No PPE funds, nothing. They got zero. And just when the countries opened up again, I started going over and bringing people over there. And one time I was in the Serengeti and word got out that I was there. And I'm going to choke up right now and tell you when I saw this. But guides came to me and with tears in their eyes thanking me that I came back because they had no living, you know? And so it is tourism.

changes lives over there. It gives people jobs. If you're a guide, unless you're a doctor or lawyer, that's like one of the highest status symbols you can have is being a guide. And that's why it's important for us to go over there because you talk about we need to give back, we need to contribute. Just going as a tourist contributes because it employs people and employs people in a segment of the industry.

that is really important to every government in F.

Jason Elkins (31:23.841)
Well, it's also such a sustainable thing, you know, and it encourages protection of the resources, the animals, because yes, can people in Africa make money mining? Okay, yeah, sure. I don't want to go too far into that, but that's not necessarily sustainable on the same level. And it definitely doesn't helping people together. And if the tourism is the leading economic

Alan Feldstein (31:26.978)
Yes, and that's the other thing.

Jason Elkins (31:52.518)
economic driver there than that has a lot of influence on other decisions that government agencies make and the communities. So I appreciate that.

Alan Feldstein (32:00.682)
Yeah, and you you hit on it right now is, you know, it used to be in the 20s and 30s, Hemingway's time, Roosevelt's time, the only tourists that went over there were there to shoot animals, you know, and, you know, we could spend a lot of time talking about hunting and big game trophy hunting and that sort of thing. But bottom line is, is people now realize, you know, the shrinking of those resources, you know, the populations.

because of human wildlife conflict and because humans are taking over a lot of land that used to belong to the elephants and the rhinos and all that sort of thing. And that's why it's important to go over because it inspires governments to be about conservation. I mean, you talk about Namibia, Namibia has conservation written into their constitution. And there are these

community conservancies where they are the stewards of not only the land but the wildlife that lives there and it gives them ownership of that. And that's very important because, you know, by preserving those resources tourists come. And when tourists come, dollars come. And when dollars come, I can send my kid to college. I can give them a better life than I had. And I can feed and I can clothe and I can do all of that. And again,

That's why I tell people,

Jason Elkins (33:27.467)
Yeah, it reminds me of some conversations I've had and heard about. think of a farmer in Africa that the elephants keep coming and eating his plantains or bananas or whatever. And that impacts his ability to support his family.

It's kind of common sense. Like what would that farmer choose to do with these elephants? How is he going to respond to these elephants if he's completely relying on growing plantains to feed his family and the elephant comes in and stumbles on him? It's not good for the elephant, right? Where if the elephant is important because it brings tourists in.

And the tourists come in and invest in the community and the government organizations might say, OK, we need to figure out a way to keep the elephants off the guy's farm without just letting him shoot them. And I don't know, you've got a lot more experience in this whole thing than I do. So I don't know. Maybe I'm just talking out my butt here. it's but I can see how having the tourism there, just all the other things just kind of fall into place. And like, how do we figure out how to make this work? Or maybe the farmer decides.

You know, I'm going to let this half of my farm, let the elephants have it, and I'm going to start a guide operation. You know, and.

Alan Feldstein (34:42.158)
No, it's not that. You've hit on the biggest, not the big, one of the biggest problems is human wildlife conflict. It's that simple. I'm on the cheetah conservation board and 25 years ago, farmers would just shoot cheetahs because they would kill their livestock. We've instituted programs to stop that. Patrick runs an anti -poaching unit. His biggest job

is a lion comes in and kills some goats. People want to go out and poison a whole pride of lions in retribution for that. We got to go out and educate those people that that's not the solution. And so that is going to be a constant problem and it's going to be a constant growing problem as we, an animal on this planet, tend to expand. And

we have to figure out different methodologies and there's people doing all sorts of different things, you know, to prevent those things from happening. And it's education, it's helping the farmers. You know, for example, one of my messiah, his goats were attacked by hyenas, they killed two goats.

next step would be let's go hunt the hyena. But no, instead we took money to give them to build a fence so they could corral their goats at night so the hyenas couldn't get in. And there's a government program there where the government will pay them compensation for losing that livestock in exchange for not going out and killing wild animals. And so

There's lots of different programs out there and that's what has to

Jason Elkins (36:37.151)
And I love that you mentioned all of those things because it all needs to work together. It can't just be education. can't just go to a farmer and say, look, these hyenas are important for our community. You need to quit shooting them. Like, I don't care. He ate my goats. So there needs to be education, not just that the hyenas are important, but education on how to keep the hyenas out, how to build the fence, resources to build the fence. And those resources come from tourism dollars.

Alan Feldstein (36:48.344)
I

Jason Elkins (37:06.785)
There's nobody else is going to pay to build a fence if there's no tourists coming. It's just like, well, we'll just get rid of the hyenas. So it's all tied together.

Alan Feldstein (37:19.214)
No, and that's probably one of the biggest discussions that's had in the industry is how is human wildlife conflict? Because people, well, there's plenty of elephants. Well, there's not plenty of elephants. If you look at the population from 40 years ago, any animal, pick them, whether it's elephant, whether it's rhino, whether it's lion, whether it's giraffe, it doesn't matter. Those populations have shranked. And it's another reason.

and I almost hate to say this, I tell people, everybody says I want to go to Africa someday. Someday I want to go, it's on my bucket list. Someday I want to go. And that's why I have a trademark slogan called Someday is Now. But Someday is Now because ask me what's going to, Africa's going to look like 20 years from now? I can't tell you. I have some concerns, but I can't tell you. So go now when you can still.

have that experience.

Jason Elkins (38:19.199)
And the world just had its way of reminding us of that fairly recently over the last few years. You know, also it's not, it's not just Africa. It's just, if that mindset is someday, maybe, well, we've, we've seen what that could do. There's a lot of people that never made that trip to Africa because they kept saying someday or to anywhere.

Alan Feldstein (38:25.516)
Yeah, I mean, look.

Alan Feldstein (38:38.338)
Yeah, and you know, even in Africa, mean, you know, four years ago, there was a the end of there was we how do I say this? About four years ago, Patrick calls me and says, Alan, and he's very stoic. says, you know, I never ask you directly for anything, but not only are livestock dying because of the drought, people are dying. And so we fed we fed them for six months till the rains.

And fortunately the rains came. And this year the rains came. The rains came so hard they flooded and wiped out villages and lodges and everything like that in the Maasai Mara because of climate change. And so until we sort of get a handle on that, we're going to have more extreme weather patterns. It's snowing in Cape Town right now. That doesn't happen very often.

You know, these are the types of things we have to keep in mind and do what we can.

Jason Elkins (39:43.309)
What about overtourism? Because that's a hot topic that's come up recently. And a lot of stuff in Europe, we're seeing a lot of reports of angry locals, hey, gringo go home type of thing. And I'm curious if that's because we're talking, come to Africa, come to Africa. They need you. We need the tourism, da -da -da -da. But I suspect there's parts of Africa that struggle with overtourism as well. So what can you share about

Alan Feldstein (39:47.712)
It is. Yeah.

Alan Feldstein (40:11.141)
100%, like in the Serengeti and Masai Mara, example, Serengeti and Tanzania, Masai Mara and Kenya, you know, if there's a lion kill, you can have 30 vehicles surrounding that. Or if you have a lion hunting, you can have 25 vehicles following that lion. It stresses the lion. It stresses the environment and stuff like that. So yes, there are a lot of discussions going on now. A lot of things, what's happening right now,

is guides are working together and saying, okay, you can have five, 10 minutes, then you have to leave. So everybody gets a turn, so to speak. Some people may get luckier than the other. Another way of avoiding that is having really good guides. So when everybody goes right, the good guides know to go left and stay away from that sort of situation. And there's plenty of wildlife to see out there. But yeah, it is

It is a big discussion that's going on constantly about too many vehicles and each country does it differently. example, Botswana is one of the more expensive places to go on safari. One of the reasons is they limit the number of beds per hectare of land that you are allowed to have like in the Okavango Delta. So supply and demand, fewer beds.

They're more expensive. Kenya and Tanzania, Tanzania has a very aggressive, you we want foreign investment. We want tourists to come and sort of things of that sort. So the guides have to work it out on how to avoid those, you know, those sorts of problems.

Jason Elkins (41:58.049)
You mentioned having a good guide and that's part of why it's important to, if you're going to go book a trip with somebody that's been doing it that knows the difference on who's the good guy and who's not. Because I grew up in Wyoming, Montana, and I've been to Africa. And I know that if I want to find wolves in Yellowstone Park, one way is to just drive the roads and look for all the cars are pulled over.

You know, it's just like if I find the cars that are pulled over, then I can find the animals. I don't necessarily need to be a good guide. I just need to be able to find where all the other guides are and and where there could be, you know, a good guide in Yellowstone could be somebody that's like, OK, yeah, we're going to ignore that. We're going to drive right past that. We're going to drive up to this little spot and then I'm going to walk you up to this spot where there's a good chance we'll be the only ones to look at the wolves. And that's really the difference between kind of a good guide.

And the experience is just totally different because in my experience.

Alan Feldstein (42:58.25)
It is. that's why tell people, read about me on TripAdvisor. Most of what's on TripAdvisor for me is not me. It's, we loved Muba, we loved Barack, we love these guys because they took such good care of us. And that's part of the cultural aspect of it all that I think people too forget. I don't do group tours. Some people like them, some people do them, I don't.

The reason is on my very first trip to Africa, if I could have fed someone to the lions, I would have fed her to the lion. And you're in a vehicle with somebody and there's no escape. So my trips are your guide, your vehicle, your schedule in East

great news, but at the same time also, you get to sit with Muba and Baraka and Steve and all these guys and learn about their lives and have, you you asked me sort of difference. People there actually have conversation, you know, we sit down and we talk and it's really lovely to be able to do that. And I think that's a difference than living here in the United States. sometimes

don't have enough time for conversation.

Jason Elkins (44:16.567)
You know, and I'm not knocking group trips at all, but what you just said kind of inspired me to think about this. There've been times, even in Africa, where I was with not a huge group, but you know, even six to eight people, most of them are from the US. And I traveled to Africa with my mom on one trip. I'm thinking of this one particular trip with her. And most of the day we spent kind of just chatting with the other guests.

The guide and the spotter and different people were there to support us. But we basically spent most of the time just discussing with the guests, where are you from? Oh, have you been here before? Where are you going next? And I've also, in other situations, spent a tremendous amount of time where it's just me and the guide, especially in the fishing world. I worked in the fly fishing world. So oftentimes, it'd be me and the guide for eight to 10 hours. Or I was the guide. I also guided in fishing.

And when it's just you and the guide, or maybe just you and your wife and the guide, you're going to have a conversation with the guide. So if nobody's ever been on a small private guided trip, it's a totally different experience. You really get to connect with the locals because they are. And that's the scenario where they might say, hey, you know what? My wife would like to have you come over tonight. So we're going to have.

build a fire and we're going to have a little party at the tribe or whatever. They're much more likely to invite you into their lives as opposed to when you sat in the back of the Jeep all day and just BSed with all the other tourists. You just don't have that connection. They're not going to say, hey, why don't you come back to my place tonight? I want to introduce you to my wife and my kids. it's a totally different experience. So I get

Alan Feldstein (46:03.048)
Now, very well said. think you're absolutely right about that.

Jason Elkins (46:08.267)
So what's next on the horizon for you and the business? Are there any new exciting developments or is it work as usual or what's going on for

Alan Feldstein (46:18.936)
Well, I'm always looking for new experiences for my clients. I mean, that's one of the things that has always driven me. I talk about the, I want the cocktail experience. What I mean by that is, you know, someone goes to a cocktail party and someone sits down and says, I just got back from Africa and I got to do A, B and C. And I want my clients to go, that's wonderful. We just got back from Africa and we got to do X, Y and Z. And someone goes like that. So I'm always.

always looking for that. And part of what I'm doing in that area is combining that with my passion for conservation. So I have, over the last few years, led people out to different private reserves in South Africa, where rhino poaching is a potential problem. And so one of the solutions of that is there's a guy

who's invented this incredible AI solar powered collar that you can put on rhinos and track them and be alerted when there's some suspicious movement or non movement of rhino. But to do that, have to

Jason Elkins (47:33.261)
Ellen, Ellen, is that important? Tell us more about suspicious movement of the rhinos. What is

Alan Feldstein (47:38.414)
Well, if a rhino is not moving, then something's not right. And you might not be able to prevent the rhino poaching, but one of the groups I work with, they can throw a net over their reserve in about 35 minutes. And so if a poacher comes in, they're not getting out. And then they can be prosecuted. And that's important. It's definitely different.

Jason Elkins (47:41.645)
Okay? Okay?

Jason Elkins (47:58.601)
Okay. Which, which is a deterrent. If the poacher knows, Hey, if I shoot that rhino, there's going to be a message sent back to the camp and this place is to be surrounded. Then that's a, that's an incentive to,

Alan Feldstein (48:10.07)
Exactly. you get, and this area gets the community involved too. So the community calls them and says, there's a strange vehicle in town, you know, and they'll go and investigate them. I mean, there's a lot of things and some of which I can't go into, but it's a, it's a multi -prong approach, but one of them is coloring. And so the rhino has to be sedated. So my clients get to go out with a vet.

Jason Elkins (48:27.468)
Mm -hmm.

Alan Feldstein (48:37.794)
That rhino gets sedated from a helicopter. The rhino goes down. My clients, they get to help notch ears, put the collar on, install microchips into the horn so that if the horns show up on a scan someplace, they know where that rhino came from. All sorts of, so they're getting very much a hands -on experience and a peek behind the curtain about what's involved in making sure this beautiful scenery is available.

you and stuff. And that's been an incredibly popular experience for some of my clients to

Jason Elkins (49:14.113)
can imagine because growing up, that's what I saw on TV. I loved the documentaries, the African wildlife, you know, mutual of Omaha's wild kingdom and all that stuff. And you would see stuff like that. You'd see these biologists out, you know, tranquilizing animals from the helicopter and they put them in nets and they do all this stuff. And it was just like, holy cow, that'd be that'd be the most amazing type of job ever. And so I can imagine why your clients would get a real kick out of doing something like that. I mean, that's pretty cool.

Alan Feldstein (49:21.666)
Yeah. yeah.

Alan Feldstein (49:43.606)
Yeah. And you know, we do other things too. you know, there's lots of opportunities to visit schools, for example, if that's what you're into. I take clients in Tanzania, for example, to a village where there's a woman's cooperative that these are women out of bad relationships and marriages and their way of making money is cooking. So they cook lunch for my clients, but they cook a traditional village.

meal of about 20 different dishes and stuff. And I love these women. once tell them, you you ought to open a restaurant in Los Angeles. They go, our suitcases are packed. When are we leaving? and, uh, but you know, is much in addition to seeing the wildlife, what I'm always looking for is how can I immerse people in experiences and in the communities there so that you have, as you talked about,

those kinds of connections and conversations that are really, important. So I'm always looking for new experiences to, you know, to do that and getting people to not be afraid to travel, you know, right now there's a lot going on in the world that we don't want to see or read about. I got a great solution for you. Go out into the middle of the bush. You won't have to think about it, you know, for couple of

Jason Elkins (51:07.277)
Well, and Africa is such an interesting destination because on one hand, we can say, well, that's your niche. But Africa is like almost too big to really be a niche. It's an area that you can obviously specialize in. It has some commonality, but it's also incredibly large with a wide variety of different options and places and experiences that you can have.

And I think sometimes when we, if we haven't been to Africa or we, if we haven't traveled a lot, we think, oh, I saw something on TV about Africa and it could have been 20 years ago. Most cases, it probably was 20 years ago that they saw something on TV and that implanted. Okay. That's Africa.

some hostilities, some bad things. Obviously bad things happen in some places in Africa and other places around the world. But it's so easy for us to implant this image that we have in our head and decide that's what Africa is. But Africa is huge.

Alan Feldstein (52:09.848)
Yeah, are two things strike me when you say that, because you're absolutely right. One is a lot of people say, hey, Alan, I want to see everything because this will be my only trip to Africa. And I say to people, that's like telling me you want to go to New York, Washington, DC, the Grand Canyon, Los Angeles, and Hawaii, and you only have two. It's not going to happen. And be careful what you say, because I would say a large portion of my business are repeats.

Jason Elkins (52:28.757)
In a week.

Alan Feldstein (52:39.502)
and referrals. It's like, that was amazing. Where are we going next? But you're also very correct in perception. For example, I'm a huge fan of Rwanda. I love Rwanda as a country. I love the guerrilla experiences. Everybody must do it. It's just really incredible. Well, Rwanda had this horrible genocide 26 years ago. You go to Rwanda now?

First of all, first country in Africa to ban the use of single -use plastic bags. Last Saturday of every month is called Umagan today, where people are responsible for cleaning their neighborhood. There's not a speck of trash in the entire country. You know, you look at the entrepreneurial spirit of this young generation, because their parents are gone, they were killed. And they have this incredible entrepreneurial spirit and they're doing amazing stuff there.

It's incredible. so, yeah, you got to get rid of the old darkest Africa, the dark continent kind of perception, because now you can get on a plane and fly nonstop to Africa. So it's not impossible to get to.

Jason Elkins (53:53.853)
And we already touched on it, but I just feel the need to share again. I was blown away by the people, the people, the people, the people. I'll just keep saying that as someone, know, I actually was my first trip to Africa that I took was with my mom. I took my mom, South Africa and Zambia, but the people just blew me away. They were so nice and whatever I grew up in the Western United States.

And like by Western, mean like Rocky Mountain Western United States where there wasn't a whole lot of cultural diversity. And I'm not ashamed to admit that I have ideas in my head, sometimes preconceived ideas about people. I'm very open -minded and very curious and all that, but.

my perceptions of the African people before I met them was like, I was way off. I was surprised how way off I was. And not like, like I didn't think African people were all horrible. I just had no idea that they would be so welcoming to someone that looked like me. You know, it's just like, it didn't matter. It literally didn't matter. I didn't feel like it mattered that I looked like me. I was there to experience their culture.

I went to a small village. We had a tour arranged and our tour guide there was, he lived in the village in a mud hut and he was in the process of building a mud hut for his son, Patrick. No, know, coincidence of the name, but his son Patrick was seven. And the story I remember was at the age of eight, the children, or maybe the boys need to move out and move into their own home, which is right next door to their parents' home.

This is the story I remember. So he was showing us this hut that he was building for his son, Patrick. And Patrick was seven. My son back home was seven. And just the contrast of how happy Patrick was, but also the reality. He lives a totally different life than my son. And as we walked through the village, Patrick held my hand the entire time. So he had my hand in one hand. And then in his other hand, he had a

Jason Elkins (56:04.875)
one of those old metal roller skate things that you used to be able to strap onto the bottom of your shoe to convert your regular shoes into roller skates. He had one of those with a clothes hanger wrapped around it, and he was wheeling that through the streets as we were walking through the village. And he was so proud and so excited to be holding my hand. And he was looking at the other kids. He's like, look at me. I'm with this cool dude

Patrick and I just had this connection. And when I left, left him with my hat and he just thought that was amazing. And it was just such a beautiful moment that, yeah, yeah. And I took pictures of Patrick. And when I got home, I showed my son pictures of Patrick. I told Jackson, my son Jackson, the whole story. And for several years after that, every once in my son would look at me and say, dad, I wonder what Patrick's doing right now. How's Patrick? How do you think Patrick's doing?

Alan Feldstein (56:38.946)
And that's what you take home with you,

Jason Elkins (56:59.885)
You know, so he created a connection with this boy because I felt such a strong connection that I shared with my son. And to this day, my son's 17. And if I said, Hey, Jackson, do you remember Patrick? And he's like, Oh yeah, the boy in Africa. Yeah. And he's never met him. Just seen some photos and that's, it's, it's a really, really special place.

Alan Feldstein (57:18.644)
It is, and you know, one of the other things too is it's genuine. It's not, I'm holding his hand because he's a rich tourist and I'm gonna get something from him. It's really, it's genuine. And that's what I think sometimes people, particularly Americans are wary of is, are they nice to me because they expecting a big tip or what? No, just let all that go. Just be in the moment and enjoy

Jason Elkins (57:23.713)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (57:45.697)
Yeah, yeah, because if you can let your guard down, would they benefit from a gift of some sort? Yeah, I mean, I gave Patrick my hat. It wasn't, you know, a big cash investment. And I know you've invested in the communities much more than I probably ever will be able to through your business. But just the hat, he was so happy. He didn't look at me like, where's more? That's not what you're supposed to give me. I put the hat on and we took a picture together and he was just tickled to death

Alan Feldstein (58:08.802)
Right.

Jason Elkins (58:15.531)
You know, it was just one of those amazing, amazing experiences that, you know, I got in the van. was crying all the way back to the lodge. It was, it was really, really cool.

Alan Feldstein (58:24.33)
I get it. Yeah. And you really do hit on it, Jason, is yeah, you go for wildlife, but it's those experiences that you come home and really relish and have a deep meaning and impact. And that's what travel's all about.

Jason Elkins (58:41.899)
Yeah, I wouldn't wish that anybody would get rid of the wildlife. So be careful. I got to be careful how I say this. But even if the wildlife weren't there, the people are still there. They need the wildlife. I get that. I'm not saying that it's not important. And that being said, it was the people. know, I would go back for the people and I will go back for the people. It was just incredible. So but I know you know all this and I know your clients know this and that's why they keep going

Alan Feldstein (58:47.287)
Right.

Jason Elkins (59:09.991)
And so it's been a lot of fun to have you on the show. I'm curious, is there anything I forgot to ask or that I should have asked or anything else that you want to make sure that our listeners know about either you, Alan, or your business before we wrap up or Africa or just life in general?

Alan Feldstein (59:13.293)
in a of

Alan Feldstein (59:23.054)
No, I I've really enjoyed this conversation because it's been a very unique one and I appreciate that very much. No, it's just that, you know, I tell people if you want to go, go. If it's on your bucket list, now's the time. You know, it's funny, I turn 70 next year and, you know, you start to feel that mortality

You can't take it with you. I tell people this too. You can do Europe when you're 90. It's really easy. So go now for a lot of reasons and we'd be honored to have you join us. But again, thank you very much.

Jason Elkins (01:00:13.665)
very well said, Alan. You've been a great guest. I know that our listeners will enjoy listening to the show. And we'll have your website link right there in the show notes. So anybody that is able to embrace the advice that Alan just gave you, click on the link, go take a look. It's not all about the website. It's about Alan. If you feel the connection here, the website will help you connect with him. But I would encourage you to actually get on a call with you, Alan, instead of just trying to pick a trip on the website.

Because I know that, you know, we've, we've, we kind of have this mindset. We can just go to some of these websites and just pick a trip and book a trip and Africa's maybe not, that's not necessarily the best way to experience Africa. So yeah, go to the website, but then have a conversation.

Alan Feldstein (01:00:57.004)
No, like designing trips for our clients so that it has what you want, not what's easiest for us to do. so yeah, I love having conversations.

Jason Elkins (01:01:13.975)
Very, very cool. Well, I see that I sense that we just had a great conversation. So thank you so much. And I look forward to collaborating with you on some projects in the future, maybe even crossing, crossing, crossing paths at some point, either in Africa, California, wherever it is. thanks. I appreciate you being

Alan Feldstein (01:01:33.976)
Thank you, Jason, very much.