Adventure Travel with Todd Smith - AdventureSmith Explorations

Area/Topic
Worldwide, Expedition Cruises, Adventure Tourism Industry, Business

Todd Smith
Founder & President
AdventureSmith Explorations

Inspired by his grandfather to camp and travel the world, Todd’s wanderlust started early. A cancer diagnosis and subsequent treatment changed his outlook on life, instilling at an early age a precious perspective to live life to the fullest. Launching his career as a naturalist guide in Alaska and Baja California, Todd gained firsthand experience operating expedition cruises and learned what it takes to exceed traveler expectations. He was instrumental in pioneering early adventure cruises with Zodiacs, kayaks and professional expedition leaders. Connecting travelers to the wilderness and conservation became his lifelong passion and the foundation of his successful adventure travel company, AdventureSmith Explorations, established in 2003.

Todd has been named a Top Travel Specialist on Condé Nast Traveler’s annual Top Travel Specialists List 11 times, and has been featured on television shows such as Lonely Planet and Jack Hanna’s Animal Adventures. He’s an elected board member of IGTOA (International Galapagos Tour Operators Association) and an advocate for sustainable travel initiatives worldwide.

https://adventuresmithexplorations.com/

summary
In this episode of the Big World Made Small podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Todd Smith, founder and president of Adventure Smith Explorations. Todd shares his journey from the ski industry to adventure travel, discussing the evolution of expedition cruising and the importance of small ship experiences. The conversation delves into the changing dynamics of the cruise industry, personal influences that shaped Todd's career, and the significance of relationships in the travel business. They also explore current trends in expedition cruising, including the appeal of the Arctic and Northern Lights, and the benefits of working with Adventure Smith for planning travel adventures.

takeaways

• Todd's journey into adventure travel began after college in the ski industry.
• The evolution of expedition cruising has created a niche market for small ship experiences.
• Small ships allow for deeper exploration of destinations compared to large cruise ships.
• Relationships with clients, staff, and partners are crucial for success in the travel industry.
• The pandemic taught the importance of maintaining strong relationships in business.
• Diversification in travel offerings can help mitigate risks associated with regional conflicts.
• The Arctic and Northern Lights are becoming increasingly popular travel destinations.
• New luxury expedition ships are changing the landscape of adventure travel.
• Adventure Smith offers personalized service without additional costs compared to booking directly.
• The auroral cycle's peak presents unique opportunities for travelers to experience the Northern Lights.

Learn more about Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Marketing and join our private community to get episode updates, special access to our guests, and exclusive adventure travel offers on our website.

Transcript

Jason Elkins (00:01.226)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. Today, very, very happy to have Todd Smith here with us. Todd is the founder and president of AdventureSmith Explorations. And if you were to go to his website, you'd see that that's kind of where the Smith came from and AdventureSmith, but it's a great play on words. I love it. So Todd, welcome to the show. So happy to have you on the Big World Made Small podcast.

Todd Smith (00:27.09)
Jason, yeah, pleasure to be here. Thanks for the invitation.

Jason Elkins (00:30.282)
Yeah, no, it's my pleasure. And we had spoken, boy, it was probably a month or two ago, kind of a little bit about what you've been doing and what you've been up to and kind of other people. We were just speaking a little bit about other people in the industry as well. You'd mentioned that you're headed off to the ATTA World Summit. It's going to be in Panama this year. So we've got a lot of mutual friends and a lot of mutual connections and probably some very shared interests. So it's fun to have you on.

Todd Smith (00:57.822)
Absolutely, yeah, pleasure to be here. You've got some great guests and hope I can live up to the expectations.

Jason Elkins (01:03.778)
Well, as I was telling you before I pushed, don't know where this conversation is going to go for our listeners. There is never a script or never a plan. So who knows? But Todd, I do want to start. There's always one place I like to start because I think our listeners are interested. It's kind of like that. You know, when you're out with guests somewhere, maybe you're leading an expedition or trip somewhere. And after dinner, the questions start there. Todd, how did you get into this? Todd, what were you doing before this? All that type of stuff. And I always figure that's if that's what people are asking.

then why reinvent the wheel? Let's have that conversation, because that seems to be what people are interested in. And it's conversation I know you and I have both had many, many times. So for our audience, let's start with Todd, how did you get from where you were to where you are now? How far back should we go?

Todd Smith (01:52.86)
Yeah, great question. know, it goes back to after college, I actually started working in the ski industry in Lake Tahoe in California and had a great time doing that for a number of years. But what happened was, is my girlfriend at the time, who's my wife now, replied to an ad in the paper to go to Alaska.

and work at a lodge for the summer, right? They were in Tahoe targeting seasonal employees. We were getting laid off for the winter, needed something to do for the summer. So we answered an ad and went to work at Glacier Bay Lodge in Alaska. And I actually started out as a bus driver and had a great summer and got exposed to Alaska and the wilderness and Glacier Bay National Park. But I figured out pretty quick that I really wanted to get out there into the back country where all the action was, where the animals were.

And so the company that owned the lodge actually owned a couple of small overnight boats. And so I actually convinced somebody I knew what I was talking about and became a naturalist guide and got on one of these boats the next summer and started my career in cruising. Yeah, that led to, you know, the boats that we worked with at that time were a little bit more rustic, if you will.

Jason Elkins (03:06.06)
Okay, very cool.

Todd Smith (03:17.022)
and a little bit more rough around the edges. And there were some definitely nicer competitors out there. So we were looking to distinguish ourselves. So I made a pitch to the management that we should stop going from town to town and we should put kayaks on board and hire a bunch of guides and do wilderness cruises in Alaska. And they thought that was a great idea. So we implemented that and it just became wildly successful.

Jason Elkins (03:34.978)
Mm

Todd Smith (03:42.846)
As far as I know, it was one of the first small ship cruises in the world, or certainly in Alaska, to put kayaks and zodiacs on board and really do back country exploration. so that's really what launched my career. I grew from there and just about 20 years ago founded AdventureSmith with that idea to take that style of travel to work with operators all around the world.

and embrace this kind of fledging industry of expedition cruising. So that's how it started kind of on a whim and it's been a fun ride.

Jason Elkins (04:21.382)
I love hearing that because anybody that had listened to kind of the pilot episode of this show, we mentioned kind of if the idea of a resort hotel, beach vacation or cruise or whatever is your idea of adventure, you're in the wrong place or whatever. And I'm not knocking any of that stuff, but really what you're talking about is so much different. And I realized after I recorded that, was like, there's different types of cruises.

And when you you lump that word in, I've always for most of my life, I'm not a cruise person. I would never do a cruise. And then I did an expedition boat trip thing in Chile for a few years, you know, and they had the helicopter and zodiacs and kayaks. And it was like, wow, that's like not what I was thinking when I was when I was growing up thinking about cruises. So I get that.

Todd Smith (05:10.032)
Absolutely, know, yeah. When I first got into the industry and when we first founded AdventureSmith, that was the battle, right? You know, I tell people that I have a cruise company and they're like, my God, you know, I am not doing that. I am never getting on a cruise ship. And you had to say, no, no, no. And you had to explain to people that, hey, there's this whole other niche, you know, we're kind of a niche within a niche. You know, these trips are all about getting off the boat, hiking, kayaking, snorkeling, that sort of thing.

Then you come back to the ship and have a glass of wine and a hot shower. And while you're sleeping, they relocate to do it again the next day. And people didn't really understand that. And now here we are 20 years later and the industry really has kind of blossomed, right? And the expedition ships are going farther than they ever have before. They're going into more destinations. There's more companies doing it. And so now the challenge instead of just

you know, telling people that this industry exists is there's so much information out there and so much kind of conflicting information. You know, what is small? What is active? That people really get confused and overwhelmed and us having done this for 20 years, that's really our role now. We're not advocating for the industry anymore. We're really helping people decipher between all the choices that are out there and getting them on the right trip or the right ship.

for their interests and their ability and their budget and their schedule. So it has changed over the years, but you still find people that say, I'm not cruising. And then once they do it, they love it, you know, once they do the small ships.

Jason Elkins (06:50.21)
You know what came up for me, listening to you is, I guess when I ask the question about people, they bring up cruise, cruise, maybe you're at a, I don't know, I don't know where, you're just out and about and you tell somebody you're in the cruise industry like you just mentioned, I would never do cruise. I'm more curious about the person that you say, work in the cruise industry and they're like, my gosh, I love cruises, I was in.

the Caribbean last year and we're going to go do a Mediterranean cruise. Tell me all about your stuff. How do you approach that conversation in a tactful manner? I'm just curious what I know you had that conversation. So what does that sound like? How do you say, well, no, no, no, no, I don't do that without kind of like deflating them or bursting their bubble.

Todd Smith (07:35.613)
Yeah, I mean, another good question. Let me tell you a story. I'll go back and tell you story. So when I was guiding up in Glacier Bay National Park off of these small ships, we would launch the kayaks in front of just spectacular tidewater glacier situations. So we'd be out there myself with six double kayaks, and we'd be paddling around and enjoying the wilderness and maybe watching the glacier calve. And then every now and then, a big cruise ship would

descend upon us, right? And we would have to kind of scurry off to the side and make sure we weren't in the way of the captain or the pilot of the ship. And of course, everybody, you 2000 people, 5000 people on the railing of a cruise ship, they're looking at the glacier and they, they spot us down here, right? And I always wish I had a sign, right? You know, go to the website and check this out because I used to tell my guests, half the people on that ship think we're absolutely nuts, right? And the other half,

Jason Elkins (08:06.976)
Mm -hmm.

Jason Elkins (08:22.592)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Todd Smith (08:34.44)
they wanna be out here, right? They wanna be doing this and they wish they were down here with us. So that's kinda how I approach it when I run into somebody who's got experience with mainstream cruising is it doesn't take too many questions to find out what they love about it. Is it the casino and the Broadway shows and the midnight buffets or is it the destinations and the culture and the nature of the places that they're going to? And if they say it's the off vessel,

Jason Elkins (08:35.607)
Mm -hmm.

Todd Smith (09:03.134)
type things, then I know I've got them hooked. And I said, well, there's a better way to do it, you know, that you can get off the boat and explore those destinations more deeply on an expedition cruise. so, like I said, it doesn't take too long. And I don't dismiss anybody who's interested in big ship cruising. There's room for those folks as well. But I think a lot of people who've done it, if they knew that the small ships existed, they would jump ship, so to speak. Pun intended.

Jason Elkins (09:32.618)
It would be interesting if you could look at the stats. Maybe you have, maybe you have a pretty good feel for this stuff. But yeah, you know, I imagine a big cruise ship with several thousand, I don't know, how many people do they put on the big cruise ships? They go like several thousand, right?

Todd Smith (09:43.966)
They're getting bigger and bigger. know, when I was guiding, they were about 2 ,000 people. Now they're up to about 5 ,000 guests and maybe two or 3 ,000 crew on the biggest ships. Really a floating city.

Jason Elkins (09:53.634)
Wow. Yeah. Cause I'm, yeah. Cause I'm imagining you're on a ship like that because you don't know any better. You're like, I want to go to Alaska. You see the pictures of whales breaching or, I guess the glaciers it's calving, right? And you're like, wow, I want to go there. And then you find yourself on a boat with 4 ,000 other people. And then you see that small ship that's closer, or you see them getting off their small ship to go up in a Zodiac to get close to this stuff.

And yeah, I just, it's like, wonder what the stats are, like how many people that ended up going on a small ship cruise started on a bigger cruise and saw it. And it's just, but I don't know. I'm sure you have a lot of anecdotal evidence. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Todd Smith (10:33.736)
Yeah, I don't know. don't have the stats. That's a difficult thing to track, but I do know. I do know it happens. know, every couple of weeks we will get somebody who calls and says, you know, hey, I went to Alaska on a big ship cruise and I'm calling you because I want to go back and I want to see Alaska. You know, so they learned about it somewhere in between and they recognize that those small ships can kind of really get to what Alaska is about, right? I mean, the towns are great. Don't get me wrong.

Jason Elkins (10:49.879)
Mm -hmm.

Todd Smith (11:01.726)
You know, but the big ships go from town to town and you kind of sleep in between. Well, I think what in between is what people go to Alaska for, right? It's the bears, it's the whales, it's the eagles, and it's the glaciers, and it's the solitude, and the wilderness, and the impact. That's why it's so unique, and that's what people are really expecting, and it's just harder to recreate with a mass tourism.

Jason Elkins (11:11.425)
Yeah.

Todd Smith (11:27.836)
with the small ships, it's really inherent in what they do. So yeah, it happens, like I said, every couple of weeks somebody will express that on the phone to us. And it's a pleasure to be able to turn them on to this style of travel.

Jason Elkins (11:45.75)
bet not too many people go back the other direction voluntarily. Maybe a family member insists that they go on a Royal Caribbean cruise after they've been on a small ship cruise with you or something, but I'm guessing it's not like, you Yeah, yeah, it's kind of hard to imagine. This is great. We're gonna discuss this a bit more, but I also, before we get too far into the conversation, I wanna really go back.

Todd Smith (11:59.742)
Yeah, I'd like to say nobody ever goes back. I don't I don't know

Jason Elkins (12:12.718)
I want to go back a little further if you're okay with it, because you mentioned you kind of started out when I finished school, I got involved in the ski industry. And I'm curious, I'm guessing there was something that was going on before that, maybe during school, maybe during your childhood that, I mean, not everybody finishes school and goes and gets involved in the ski industry and ends up running an expedition, cruise, tour operation, all that stuff. So what happened before you graduated college?

Todd Smith (12:42.066)
Yeah, during college, I actually was diagnosed with cancer and I had to leave school, go through treatment. I went through a couple of surgeries and chemotherapy and what have you. And that, you know, for a young person is a little bit scary, but, you know, I look back on it now as a life -changing event, right? So I learned pretty early on.

You know, to live life to its fullest, to make decisions based on what you want, not on what the outside pressures might be. You know, so after college, instead of going straight into the job market, yeah, I ended up moving to Lake Tahoe and it was supposed to be, you know, just for a season or two, right? I was going to be a ski mom and live that lifestyle and have fun.

and then go back to the real world. But of course, these things have a way of propagating themselves. And once you get into that lifestyle, it's hard to go back, like I said. So we were skiing and we got this opportunity in Alaska. And then I was working in tourism in Alaska and in Baja during the winters and the summers and doing my shoulder seasons in Tahoe until it eventually became

you know, kind of a full -time thing with tourism and with guiding. And we were doing that for a number of years. After I left the small ship industry, I actually went to work for an ecotourism operator, a great mentor who was one of the founders of the International Ecotourism Society. And so I actually learned that whole side of the industry as well, you know, how to hire local guides, how to keep the money from guests.

purchases in the local community, how to raise money for conservation and local communities through tourism, things like that. that was a great education and experience as well. And, you know, I was having a great time living this lifestyle, traveling all over the world. But at the same time, my wife and I wanted to come back to Tahoe and we had this connection here. And so we decided, well, how are we going to do that? So

Todd Smith (14:57.982)
The inspiration was really to take this concept of small ship expedition cruising, which I had so much experience with, and then this other niche of conservation and ecotourism and sustainable travel and marry them together. so, yeah, in 2003, we moved back to Lake Tahoe and because we're kind of a phone -based, internet -based company,

We can be based anywhere. So we based ourselves here and launched AdventureSmith. And so it's super fun because when you live in a resort town like this, I mean, I'm just super blessed. tell people, you know, I get to go all over the world, right? I'm going to Panama in a couple of weeks. I was just in Europe, you know, so I get to go all these amazing trips all over the world. And usually, you know, when you come back from a trip like that, you come home,

Jason Elkins (15:28.374)
Mm

Todd Smith (15:55.57)
And you're like, I got to go back to the grind, right? And I'm back to the day to day. And you kind of go through this little depression when you come back from an outstanding trip like that. But when you live in Lake Tahoe, you don't get that, right? You come home and you're like, my gosh, I love where I live. I get to go skiing or I'm going paddling on the lake or I'm going for a hike. And so it really is the best of both worlds. And I consider myself very fortunate.

Jason Elkins (15:59.052)
You

Jason Elkins (16:22.434)
I reluctant to say this, sometimes I don't have a filter, so I'm gonna say it. It's not like you're going back home to Des Moines, Iowa, right? So I get it. I've done enough traveling and lived in some cool places. And yeah, when you get home, you're like, man, that's cool. There's stuff to do here as well. That's a real treat.

Todd Smith (16:30.264)
You

Todd Smith (16:40.002)
Yeah, yeah, I lived in Seattle. I lived in San Diego. I lived in some big cities and places like that. And when you come home to a big city from a wilderness trip, it's a whole different thing. When you come to Tahoe, it's a soft landing, I guess.

Jason Elkins (16:52.387)
Easier transition. Yeah, I'm sure. Hey, I gotta say, I'm really happy I asked the question about what happened before you graduated school and I appreciate you sharing that because as you were saying that, was like, okay, I get it. That makes a lot of sense. I've got a follow up question. If that had not have happened, I know it's impossible. We don't have, can't see 2020, you know, hindsight or whatever, but if that had not happened and you'd had a more just normal kind of college experience.

Do you think, were there other influences? Do you think you would have ended up doing something similar or what do you think you would have been doing? I'm sure you've thought about it.

Todd Smith (17:29.02)
I don't know, it's a really good question. Perhaps, I I credit my grandfather with kind of my love of travel and even in college I was starting to get into travel. I was taking road trips down into Baja, I was camping all over the West, going to national parks, things like that. So it could have gone that direction. I was studying sciences, biology and ecology.

And, you know, that certainly played into a factor down the road when I became a guide. That was a nice background to have. So it's hard to say, you know, where that environmental science career might have taken me. But, you know, again, I look back at my cancer as a life -changing event because one of the reasons I ended up in Tahoe was because, you know,

Jason Elkins (17:59.756)
Mm

Todd Smith (18:21.918)
Thankfully at the time I was 21 years old and I was still on my health plan. And so growing up in Northern California, I could be in Tahoe and I could still go to see my doctor. I had to get regular checkups right after the situation had resolved itself. I still had to get regular checkups pretty frequently. And so Tahoe was a conducive place to do that.

Jason Elkins (18:30.348)
Mm

Todd Smith (18:47.75)
If I hadn't had the cancer, if I hadn't moved to Tahoe, may have never got, they answered the ad to go to Alaska and it could have gone a whole different direction. But I'd like to say that my grandfather's influence and my love of travel was there. So maybe it would have manifested itself anyway.

Jason Elkins (19:03.862)
I've during this conversation, I've heard you mention your grandfather. I've heard you mentioned your wife who clearly, you know, she was the one that applied for the, or found the ad initially. So I'm guessing she was pretty supportive in the beginning. What about other people in your life? there any, because sometimes we get that like, you know, I'm going to go to college and parents sometimes shell out a bunch of money for us to go to college. And then we go, we go run the ski lift operator. work for the ski patrol.

Sometimes there was some resistance. I'm just curious, anything you'd like to share there about other people in your life and were they supportive about your decisions?

Todd Smith (19:38.064)
man, yeah, well, there's a long list, but yeah, I would start with my wife. Yeah. She, she famously, you know, would say I, would go on walks, right? Or hikes or wherever we were. Like I said, we were traveling around the West, camping, going down to Baja, doing paddle trips, that sort of thing. and, and I'm constantly like, you know, inundating her with information about the plants and the animals, you know, and just, it was my interest, right? That's what I was into. And she, she would be like, you know,

Jason Elkins (19:40.45)
You

Jason Elkins (20:00.929)
You

Todd Smith (20:05.616)
you should be a guide, you should be a tour guide, you you should get into this. And I think she was just trying to shake me off a little bit so that I would talk to other people about it instead of just constantly rattling it off to her. Yeah, so she kind of planted that seed and gave me the confidence to do it. Like I said, my grandfather was a big influence on me and they traveled a lot. And I remember like as a young child,

Jason Elkins (20:12.495)
Mm -hmm. You should go find somebody else to explore the, yeah.

Todd Smith (20:32.266)
they would come home from a trip and give us flight shows and just seeing pictures of exotic places, you know, really kind of instilled something in me. When I was working for the cruise line in Alaska, I had a number of great mentors, but one of the marketing staff really, like I said, I was a guide and eventually became kind of the program manager. So I was in charge of the itineraries. I was hiring, training the guides, working with the captains to talk about, you know,

plan out where we would go, working on the permits, very operational type background. But when we made the switch to these more expedition type cruises, the marketing folks really didn't know what to do with it, right? We made this decision and so they brought me in and they were like, Todd, we need your help. We're traditional cruise folks and we don't really know how to sell this. So how do we lay out the brochure?

Why don't you come with us to talk to travel agents and tell them what it's like? Who is the client for this? And so the vice president of marketing really took me under his wing. And he was a big mentor during that time. Like I said, my boss at the Eco -Tourism company was also a wonderful mentor and was really, really a founder in the sustainable travel industry. And so I learned a lot from him.

and made a lot of connections. And so, they were all instrumental in kind of this all coming together the way it did. And I still, I go to these events, like we talked about the Adventure Travel World Summit in Panama, and I'm just inspired by these people that are doing so much. When I first started doing this, I was a lot younger than I am now. And I used to joke with a friend of mine, we were young and we were going to these events.

20 years ago and we used to whisper to each other and say, hey, know, there's so and so and there's so and so and these are the elder statesmen of adventure travel. said, someday, someday that's gonna be us, right? And so I went to the last event, I went to the last event in Ecuador just a few months ago and I called him as soon as I got home, my buddy Joe, and I said, Joe, it's happened. Where are those people now? You know, I got the gray beard.

Jason Elkins (22:42.134)
Here we are.

Todd Smith (22:54.43)
And we're getting to be the elder statesman now. But it's just inspiring the people that work in this industry and the way they share their passion and their knowledge. So I continue to be inspired and mentored by a lot of folks out there. As you know, there's a lot of interesting people in this industry.

Jason Elkins (23:14.54)
Gee, gee.

Yeah, absolutely. And on that note, because you've got some experience, you went from kind of the you didn't use the word newbie, but the newbie to the elder statesman, you've seen some changes, you've got some gray in your beard, I've got you've got a lot of in your beard. I'll be honest, I've got quite a bit in my beard as well. And I think both you and I have seen a lot of change, but you've probably been closer to it than I have over that course of a longer period of time. So I'm curious.

Can you put your finger on any changes in the types of people that are participating in this business now? Or do you feel like it's pretty much the same personality style that was getting into this 20, 30 years ago that's still working in it now or that's coming in now? Or do you think it's shifted? Because if you look at society as a whole, we can say, well, every generation has their own kind of way of looking at the world and way of approaching the world. So what are the biggest changes you've seen as far as the people?

working in the business.

Todd Smith (24:17.616)
Yeah, yeah, good question. mean, I think I think there's two ways to look at this. And in one way, it is the same personality type. You know, these are adventurous people who are passionate about places, passionate about communities, passionate about the planet, and want to use their entrepreneurship and use travel as a means to help.

communities, you know, and make connections, right? You're making connections with visitors to the places that we travel. And so I see a lot of young people coming up and they all have that, right? And a lot of them even have more, right? They have a lot more technical savvy now on how to do it, how to get the word out, and how to use social media and things like that to spread the word. So.

So there's a lot of grassroots people coming up, starting businesses, former guides like myself, people like that that are coming up and founding or joining just wonderful companies and they're doing wonderful things all over the world. On the other hand, in my industry, in the expedition cruise industry, there's something that's happening on the other side, right? We see a lot of big ship.

companies, a lot of people that come from the traditional cruising side of things, and they're moving into this niche a little bit blind, I might add, because they see it as a business opportunity. They see it as lucrative. These are high -end, more luxurious, more expensive type trips, and they see this as a business opportunity. So they're getting in it from that side.

and they honestly, you know, really don't know the nuances. It's a lot, you know, more difficult to get the right person on an Antarctica cruise than it is to get the right person on a cruise out of Miami. And so, you know, they're making mistakes, they're getting the wrong people on the wrong cruises. The cruises may get a bad review then because it's just the wrong type of people.

Jason Elkins (26:25.708)
Mm

Todd Smith (26:38.588)
because they're seeing it as a money -making opportunity and not from this side of the passion and the industry and the deep knowledge that it takes and that a lot of us who've grown up with it have. So that's an unfortunate side effect of growth, but it's something that's out there.

Jason Elkins (26:59.586)
It's a super interesting topic. We could probably do a whole other episode about that and maybe some other, I don't know, but it's so what I hear you saying, it's, you know, these bigger cruise companies, they're used to the big ships with two, three, 4 ,000 people. saying, look at these guys making money with these small boats. We should buy a few small boats. Take our same staff that we have on the big boats and pick a few of them and go put them on the small boat.

and maybe use the same marketing team and it just doesn't fit or is

Todd Smith (27:31.774)
Little bit, yeah, mean, so that is happening. That's actually, you there's some interesting cases where that happened and then they tried it for a few years and then decided it wasn't worth it. And now they're selling those boats off. So I would say maybe it's not the cruise lines as much, but it is like cruise agencies, right? Big agencies that have been selling traditional cruises for a long time. Sea expedition cruises as a market opportunity and are jumping in. And so if you've sold, you know, traditional cruises to Europe or

Jason Elkins (27:39.393)
Yeah.

Todd Smith (28:01.342)
Caribbean, you know, for your whole life, all of a sudden, you know, selling a trip to Antarctica sounds very appealing, but it takes a little bit more in -depth knowledge to make that switch. And so that's what we're seeing is a lot of big time kind of agencies with a lot of money behind them kind of seeing this as an opportunity to make money, which it probably is.

Jason Elkins (28:14.722)
Okay, okay, I got it.

Jason Elkins (28:28.226)
And I'm not, I hope this doesn't sound like I'm knocking anybody, but that agent who has been working for a large cruise line company selling large cruises for 20 years, all of a

I mean, there was a probably reason they were attracted into that business in the first place. They were probably excited about cruises, large cruises. They maybe have that, maybe that's their thing. They enjoyed that. That's, and they're probably, when they told their friends, work in the cruise industry, they're having that conversation about, I can help you book a trip to the Mediterranean. I can help you book a trip to the Caribbean or whatever. And then you take that, that maybe that different, slightly different personality.

and say, okay, now look, we just added, we did something on virtual. So now you can sell these other cruises to Antarctica. And they're like, okay, that's cool. But, you know, I can see where that might present some challenges if you multiply that over however many thousands of agents are selling cruises out there. yeah, I, I, yeah, no, no, I get it. It's just.

Todd Smith (29:27.454)
Yeah, I think so like I said, I don't want to bash on anybody either, know, my yeah my advice is Yeah

Jason Elkins (29:32.258)
You know, if I'm used to selling cars, if I've been selling cars for 20 years and then all of a the car dealership says, hey, we're going to start selling houses next door. We just bought this land and congratulations, you're now a real estate agent. That could be a challenge. So I'm not going anybody. It's just, you know, I don't know.

Todd Smith (29:49.118)
Yeah, well, I mean, you get back to, you when we talked about the originally the difference in the industry, you know, small ships versus the big ships. It really is a niche within a niche. And, you know, it just takes a level of knowledge, you know, that takes a lot of time, right? I've been doing it for 20 years. I've been to Antarctica, you know, I don't know, 10 times. And I still don't know it all, right? I'm still learning the nuances of it, you know, so.

Jason Elkins (30:07.616)
Mm

Todd Smith (30:17.694)
Yeah, I would just encourage anybody who's getting into it. You really need to do a deep dive. It's not something that you want to just dabble in. Because if somebody's spending $20 ,000 on a trip to Antarctica and they're on the wrong product for them, it's bad for everybody. It's bad for the agency. It's bad for the cruise line. It's bad for the client.

Jason Elkins (30:34.028)
You

Jason Elkins (30:40.79)
Yeah, well, yeah, they go expecting one thing and they expect the midnight buffet or whatever and it's not there, then yeah, that could be a, that's not a great example. I'm sure you can give many better examples, but I do want to ask you this because we talked a little bit about kind of personality types and niches and just people in general. And I recognize that if you're hiring a guide,

for an expedition cruise or any adventure tour business really, or if you're hiring a salesperson or if you're hiring an operations person, there's a lot of differences. You might look for different things. But I suspect there's some people that are listening to the show, that frequently listen to the show, are aspirational about maybe getting out of what they're doing and getting into this industry. So I'd love to hear your thoughts real quick on, because you mentioned passion, people that are passionate about these places, passionate about.

you know, maybe the environment or whatever it is, but I'm curious what the skill set is. So you're hiring a guide to work on a ship, small ship in Alaska for the summer. What's the skill set you're most looking for in that guide?

Todd Smith (31:49.374)
Yeah, interesting question. You know, the guide industry does tend to be pretty tight knit, you know. So how do you break in, right? You know, on small ships, you know, I think the way you break in is you don't start as a guide, right? You start working on these boats as a deck hand, as, you know, part of the hotel staff.

Jason Elkins (32:11.532)
Okay.

Todd Smith (32:17.854)
You know as an assistant, know somewhere like that do a summer or two there and see if you can kind of work your way Work your way work your way into it There are a number of certifications out there right now. We talked about the adventure travel trade association. They're there They're working on guide certifications Things like that. Yeah You know

Jason Elkins (32:40.002)
Well, let me ask you this, Todd. Let me ask you this. So someone comes to you, a friend of a friend or a family member, a niece, nephew, whatever, and says, I want to get into the guiding business. I want to be a small ship expedition guide. And you say, okay, well, you should start out here. You should start, you know, this is a good way to work your up, your way up. There's a deck hand or whatever, but what's the skillset that like, if you're, if you're really doing them justice, you're to look at them and say, well, this is.

You can work your way up for two years, but if you're missing this particular skill set, you're kind of wasting your time because you're never going to get you might. You might have the skillset to be a deckhand, but you might not have this important skill set that you're going to need to actually become a guide someday.

Todd Smith (33:23.74)
Yeah, I think the most important, you know, kind of trait for a good guide is people skills, right? It really just comes down to being able to communicate with people, being able to express yourself, having the confidence to do that, listening to people and what they're saying and kind of acting on it. so, you know, again, I'm not sure it's something that, you know, is very easily trained.

But it is that that kind of those kind of people skills and communication and and working with people and like I said the best guides I mean, of course, you know, you're out there to to show people a good time. You're out there to keep people safe You know, but I feel like the best guides are the ones like I said that can really Communicate the meaning of the destination and connect it to the interests of the visitor and you know, so you have this opportunity as a

guide, you know, you get these people maybe a little bit out of their comfort zone, right? You're in the wilderness, you're maybe you're in a kayak, or you're you're walking around in bear country or something like that, you might maybe a sea bear or maybe you're paddling in front of a glacier. And these people are having this really wow kind of emotional experience. And you need to be able to kind of play on that and say, Okay, here we are.

in Antarctica and you've just been blown away by this glacier that we walk next to today. And then they come back to the boat and everybody's sharing their experiences and they're having this visceral emotional reaction to it. That's when you have them and you can say, how was that? What did you enjoy about it? And then eventually the conversation might turn around to climate change or conservation or...

penguins and bird flu. And you can take this experience and connect it maybe to an issue and make them care about that. Make them care about a destination or a place or a community. And it's only when people really care about and are passionate about and love a place that they're going to do something to preserve it, right? So you have this moment and it's fleeting and it's rare, but

Todd Smith (35:49.938)
these places and these experiences open people up to this opportunity where you can make this connection. And then if you can plant a seed of conservation or maybe a small lifestyle change and they go home and they say, you know what, I'm going to ride my bike today because I learned about climate change when I was in Antarctica or I'm going to consider buying an EV. I'm just going to change my lifestyle in ever so subtle ways. If you can scale that up.

you can make a difference in the world. And that's what good guiding really is. And to bring it back to your question, you need those kind of people skills and be able to connect with people and with travelers and with your clients in order to do that.

Jason Elkins (36:36.694)
Kind of a, what I hear you saying is emotional intelligence. You know, I think we have this, you know, maybe not like, okay, I show up the first day and I know every single type of penguin and I know their habits and their mating patterns and they're this and they're that. And I know the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. And I know all about this stuff. can be incredibly intelligent about the.

the things we're going to discuss, but I don't have those people skills and I have the ability to ascertain is this the right time to have this conversation? love that you said it the way you did because I kind of feel like if you show up on a, an expedition or any type of trip and immediately it's like, okay, we don't.

Use plastic bottles here. We this that and it's it's so conservation focused from the moment you get there that it's all about the ice book with one person that they have a whole like program around measuring the amount of food that they start the day with. And then they measure the amount of food at the end of the day and they measure everything. And it's like this is the whole trip. I'm thinking, wow, that sounds really boring. Not so great. I'll be honest. And I was like, I I'm not.

there, I don't know, it's not my business. Maybe it works great. But I think what you said was better about give them a reason that visceral experience. They're like, they're there in the environment. They see it, they're excited about it. And then maybe it's a good time to have a conversation about, well, you what are the critical things that we need to consider in order to so that 20 years from now you can come back with your grandkids or whatever.

Todd Smith (38:15.506)
Yeah, absolutely. Emotional intelligence, communication skills, people skills is really kind of it. mean, there is a whole industry, academics behind this. It's thematic interpretation is what it is. And you can teach people this skill to make these connections. But I find the people that do it the best are the ones that have that skill kind of already inherent in them.

If you just give them the academic, you know, kind of process of how to present things in such a way to make connections, that's great. But if you don't have the nuance and if you don't have kind of the communication skills to do it, it's not going to resonate. So it takes a little bit of both. But if you have those skills and you learn the process of thematic interpretation, in addition to all the other skills that a guide needs,

Jason Elkins (38:44.118)
Mm

Todd Smith (39:13.566)
You know, that's really the ones that rise above and become the best guides and those are the people that usually make a career of it because they're passionate about it, they love connecting with people. And honestly, when you do this well, that's how you get the big tips too, right? And so that's like self -reinforcing as a guide. You're like, what I'm doing is working. People like it, they're tipping me. I think I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna make a career of it, yeah.

Jason Elkins (39:33.185)
Mm -hmm.

Jason Elkins (39:40.898)
As opposed to at end of the first summer, like, man, I can't afford to do that again. That sucked. I didn't. You these people are cheap. I'm curious if, if, if you didn't know, this is not the case, but if you are running a business and you need to hire guides and for some reason you're getting close to the season starting and you haven't had enough people apply and you were going to go out and start recruiting.

Todd Smith (39:43.71)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jason Elkins (40:08.788)
and you didn't have any guides. couldn't go other companies, recruit other guides, but you had to go out into an industry or of your recruiter and say, go get me a guide that's never been a guide. Where would you go?

Todd Smith (40:20.402)
Yeah, well, I mean, I do need to kind of put the caveat out there that, know, AdventureSmith is not hiring guides right now. We work with companies that do that. But yeah, it's...

Jason Elkins (40:28.074)
No, yeah, I get that.

Jason Elkins (40:36.149)
You just saw your email inbox filling up with people that want to be guides. I'm happy that you mentioned that. I knew that, but yeah, yeah.

Todd Smith (40:42.098)
Well, no, we get it a lot. We get a lot. got a lot of friends and I also, you we get, and so I love to connect people who are interested in the industry with the actual hiring managers that are doing it. But that's a great question. If you were a hiring manager looking for these types of people, you know, where do you do it? I think that's a million dollar question because they're constantly looking for good people, right? These jobs, you know, are

Jason Elkins (41:07.201)
Mm

Todd Smith (41:12.294)
are available. They're out there. the companies that are hiring are always looking for good people. So there are a few tricks of the trade. Like I said, they're looking for these seasonal employees, so looking for other places where active young people are getting laid off for the season is a good. And there's entire websites now.

Jason Elkins (41:35.349)
Let top tall at the ski resort.

Todd Smith (41:38.098)
There's entire websites now dedicated to, you know, kind of adventure travel jobs. think ATTA is a good resource. you know, and you kind of have to be crafty, right? When I, when I was hiring for guides in Alaska, you know, we were operating during the summer. So where do I go? Where do I look? Well, I used to go to Hawaii, right? Who's working on the whale boats in Hawaii that are getting laid off.

in the spring because the whales are migrating so let the guides migrate too you know so that was a little trick that I had to find good people and we found some great people that way you know.

Jason Elkins (42:07.702)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Jason Elkins (42:17.1)
But if you're looking outside of adventure travel, like I can't hire anybody who's ever worked in adventure travel or on a ship or just even remotely close to that industry. I guess the question is what other industry do you think seems to attract the same types of people that would be successful as guides? just curious, because I've asked a few other people this question. I'm just curious. I'm trying to see if there's a trend or a pattern or anything like that. So I'm just curious what your thoughts are.

Todd Smith (42:47.056)
I don't know, Jason, I think you got me stumped there. I'm not quite sure.

Jason Elkins (42:49.332)
Okay, I don't want to I'm not trying to put you on the I can tell you so I worked in real estate for for several years and it was teachers like teachers were a great prospect to become a realtor because They just had the heart of a teacher. They they liked people they wanted to help people They wanted to educate people on the home buying process this that type of thing I suspect teachers. Honestly, I think teachers also could potentially be very good guides and they're seasonal sometimes

Todd Smith (43:00.712)
Yeah.

Todd Smith (43:15.878)
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think unlike when I did this, know, there's entire schools now on tourism and, you know, on the travel industry, you know, so you can find young people who are eager to study this, you know, recreation, outdoors, you know, there's entire academics.

Jason Elkins (43:19.264)
or servers in restaurants.

Jason Elkins (43:26.86)
That's true.

Todd Smith (43:41.132)
your degrees and programs about this so you know there's a lot of young people that are studying to do this.

Jason Elkins (43:43.318)
Yeah, yeah, you're right. You're right. So when I say, can't touch anybody from the trial industry, that's kind of like, okay, well, what's the point of this question, Jason? Because there's a lot of people out there that have already raised their hand and said, yeah, I want to do that type of work. Okay, well, I appreciate your candor there. Let's discuss a little bit more about, let's see, we've covered quite a few things. I think something I really want to discuss.

Todd Smith (43:52.006)
you

Jason Elkins (44:13.318)
is frankly, what do you do? What has your experience been? And as far as like preparing for natural things, natural things that come along and disrupt our business, you know, we had a case of that here a couple of years ago, we've had financial things in the past. And what have you learned? Cause you've been through that type of thing a few times. What have you learned that you would like to share with somebody else listening that might benefit from your wisdom over the years?

Todd Smith (44:41.874)
Yeah, yeah, good question. mean, certainly anybody in travel who's been in it for any length of time, you know, experienced the pandemic and everything that kind of went along with it. And I think, you know, the lesson that I take out of all of this is, you know, I used to think that our greatest asset was this amazing product, right? These expedition ships where you're getting off the boat and exploring nature and wildlife in these amazing locations. And I've learned that

you know, that's a part of it, but that's not the main part of it. You know, when, and, and, and we used to talk about this, but now it really is in the forefront. And I think that, you know, in order to survive an event like that, it's really about the relationships that we have with people. And we talked about, you know, like I said, good guiding and the, the, relationships that you create with a client. But as a business owner, you know, we kind of have three

stakeholders, right? Of course, our clients, right? Our clients are an important relationship and we love to foster a personalized relationship with them. Sharing our expertise, sharing our knowledge and getting them on the right trip and, and, know, over the course of 20 years, we've got some amazing clients who've been with us on dozens and dozens of trip, you know, and they come back year after year or two or three times a year. And that speaks volumes, you know, so that's the, that's, you know, the

primary stakeholder that most business owners are thinking of, right? Of course, your clients. Secondary, well, not secondary, but equal, on equal footing with the clients are your staff, right? And we're proud that we've been in business for 21 years now and more than half my staff have been with me for 10 years or more.

So treating your staff right, investing in them, giving them the benefits and creating that work -life balance for them is incredibly important. So that I think is an investment that maybe is sometimes overlooked. going into the pandemic, we had 16 employees.

Todd Smith (47:08.254)
Unfortunately, we did have to lay off for people kind of immediately. And then we worked with everybody to go through some furloughs and some part -time, but we survived and we were able to keep everybody. And we were actually incredibly busy, right? We had thousands of clients on the books who needed to be rebooked or needed to be reassured or needed to be refunded.

Jason Elkins (47:28.524)
Mm

Todd Smith (47:37.406)
So even though trips were not operating, we were incredibly busy and I needed my staff to be there showing up. And of course, everybody's dealing with this incredibly stressful time. So you get your clients, you got your staff, and then it's your relationship with your other partners, right? So the people in the field, like I said, the guides, the cruise operators, the lodge operators.

Jason Elkins (47:37.6)
Mm

Jason Elkins (47:43.171)
Yeah

Todd Smith (48:05.338)
You know, all these people that are out there in the field and kind of on the ground. And they also, you know, we all had to come together to kind of survive this. And so we created these working groups on, you know, hey, what is, what are you doing, you know, to maintain your staff? What are you doing, you know, to process refunds or whatever, or what are you doing, you know, for somebody who's rebooked? And so sharing these challenges and, and

creating a community amongst your colleagues and your partners became an essential tool to survival for all of us. Even competitors, right? Some I know other colleagues who own businesses that we compete with, but we came together to share our experiences and kind of commiserate and, you

survive together. always feel like that there's, you know, we're stronger together than we are apart. If we can advocate for our industry and advocate for our staff and our clients, you know, we're going to be stronger together. So even some competitors that came together during that time. And so, you know, I think the thing that resonates for an event like that, or, you know, there's other, you know, challenges that we're facing, you know, in certain

destinations, know, there's avian influenza that's going around, you know, some sites in the Galapagos had to be closed for a certain amount of time, you know, there's the challenge of over tourism in some Mediterranean ports, you know, how are we dealing with that? You know, there's, you know, the effect of tourism on the communities. you know, having strong relationships

with your partners gives you a better, you know, just pool to draw from and you can survive these challenges and come up with ideas that you can share with one another than you would be able to do alone. So that's what this event has taught me is that those relationships are really the foundation of AdventureSmith. More so even than, you know, the amazing product.

Todd Smith (50:27.974)
or the amazing service that we provide. It's those fostering those relationships and maintaining those in the long run is what's helped us survive. And it's what's helping us thrive in the marketplace now. And can you get the marketplace to recognize that? So that's been a big lesson for me.

Jason Elkins (50:46.945)
Mm

Jason Elkins (50:51.522)
Appreciate you sharing that. I'm curious. So what came up for me while you were sharing that was kind of like how do you balance diversification and having a niche. So it's like, okay, my niche is small ship. I'm not speaking for you. I'm just an example. Let me give you a totally different example. My niche is mountain tracking overnight mountain tracking trips, or my niche is Romania bicycle trips.

So that's my niche and I'm really, really good at it. But if something happens in Romania or that's probably a better example, something happens geographic in my region, my niche, then I'm kind of screwed. But we also tell people all the riches are in the niches and you got to really kind of specialize. You don't want to be offering the big cruise ships, the small expedition cruises. So how do you balance out?

diversification to protect yourself against regional conflicts, medical concerns, stuff like that, without diluting your niche. I don't know if I haven't thought this question out ahead of time. I don't know what that sounded like, but bear with me. And what do you think?

Todd Smith (52:02.526)
Yeah, I mean, it's a question that a lot of companies and a lot of people faced, right? Over our tenure in 20 years, we've been able to diversify quite a bit. So we work with destinations around the world. And that was mostly just seasonally, right? If we're only working in Alaska and Antarctica, when something happens, so how can we get destinations that are operating?

year round and it balances out just so that the staff is not overwhelmed during certain times of year. But you know for regional operators, yeah it's an incredible challenge right? So if you're in a specific location and there's an event in that location, how do you handle it? You know I've not been in that situation so I can't speak to it but I would go back to my previous

answer in our discussion about relationships. If you've got relationships with a diversity of inbound partners, hopefully they would step up and help. I can use Ecuador and the Galapagos as an example. Here's this pool of highly trained, highly specialized guides in the Galapagos Island where 90

plus percent of the economy is based on tourism. And this is something they're rethinking now, but during the pandemic, everything's shut down. These people are instantaneously out of work, not just the guides, right? Now you're talking about the dock operators, the food producers, you know, like I said, 90 or so percent of the economy of the islands is based on tourism. So what do you do? And, you know,

Jason Elkins (53:49.44)
Yeah, it's like the islands just lost their job, the whole thing, right?

Todd Smith (53:53.34)
Yeah. so, you know, again, I'm not going to say that we were this knight in shining armor that came in and rescued them, but there was this community of operators outside the islands that recognized what was going on and did our best to raise funds and raise awareness and help these people out during this catastrophic event. Right. Our industry

was and is based on their efforts. So for 20 years, they were working diligently to keep this industry rolling and to show people a good time and to raise awareness for their islands and raise awareness for the issues. And this is an issue, right? What happens if tourism suddenly shuts down, which is something that the government and the people hadn't really considered before.

So we scrambled and did a little bit of fundraising, which I'd like to think helped, but it certainly, you know, we couldn't reach everybody. But so that's something that now that we're out of it and things are looking a little better is like, how, yeah, how can they diversify, you know, and not be as reliant or how can we change the structure of tourism so that it benefits the people in the community a little bit more so that there is a nest egg.

If another event like that should should occur. So it's a good question. I think it's a it's a it's a challenge that the tourism faces around the world And something that you know should be discussed now in in good times, right? You don't wait until there's a crisis To start to have those conversations, but if you have strong relationships with with partners and with operators around the world

There might be some resources there to help you get through.

Jason Elkins (55:52.386)
Cool. I appreciate that response because that was something I've kind of just been had in my head here recently. It's like, okay, maybe I live in the US and I want to start an outbound tour operation and I want to kind of specialize in, you know, I'm in Columbia right now. I just said I'm in the US. That wasn't my example. I'm actually in Columbia. But let's say I'm in the US. I was a tour guide for several years and I want to kind of start my thing. I really like Columbia. I'm going to start a business all about Columbia.

But then one bad political event, one election protest, one anything could really have a serious impact on that. So that was kind of my thinking is like, if I'm listening to this, I'm like, okay, do I really want to put all my eggs in the, you know, the Ecuador basket, the Columbia basket, the Kenya basket?

or does it make sense to kind of diversify in it? I think I just heard you say, yeah, probably diversification is a good thing. And maybe it seems obvious, but as somebody that's spent a lot of time in Latin America, I'm like, I don't know if I'd want to put all my eggs in one basket, because I see things change so quickly. So I was just kind of curious what your thoughts were on that. Todd, we've discussed a bunch of things. I've come up with a few different ideas.

Todd Smith (57:01.896)
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Elkins (57:11.158)
Thematic presentation. that what you, what you said when you teach somebody to the magic interpretation? wrote that down. That sounds like a podcast episode in the works. especially for anybody listening to this, it wants to kind of learn more about, working in the business and, and other tour operators that maybe are like, what was that? just said I was, you I don't have, you know, anyway, so I wrote down some ideas for future podcast episodes. And I'm, I'm curious before we wrap up, what is, what questions did I forget to ask? I should have asked.

Todd Smith (57:14.031)
Thematic interpretation, yeah.

Jason Elkins (57:41.238)
or you think you just wanna make sure that the listeners of the show really know about either you, your business, life in general, anything like that that we should touch on before we wrap up.

Todd Smith (57:51.774)
Yeah, let's talk a little bit more about my niche, about expedition cruises. What it is, where it goes, what's trending right now.

Jason Elkins (57:55.944)
All right, yeah, good, good.

Jason Elkins (58:01.514)
I'm happy you said that because I was looking at the time. Well, I kind of feel like we talked a lot about other stuff and I didn't, wanted to be respectful of your time, but I've got plenty of time. So let's dig into that some more. Cause I want people to feel, you know, like they're connected with you, learn some stuff from the podcast, but I also want them to have a clear idea of what it is you guys do.

Todd Smith (58:05.839)
you

Jason Elkins (58:18.762)
So if they something resonates or like, man, I need to reach out to adventure Smith. need to go on their website. Take a look at that. That's not cause you got a great website. I was on there right before we, before we started recording. was like, man, you got a lot of cool trips to go on a lot of cool places. And so let's talk about that a little bit. What would you like to share? Yeah.

Todd Smith (58:26.939)
Thanks.

Todd Smith (58:32.328)
Thanks, yeah, we get a lot of good feedback. Yeah, I mean, know, so we talked a lot about already about big ships versus small ships, you know, so what does that exactly mean, right? And I think my definition is very different than what a lot of people's definitions is, right? A thousand people can be small now, right? We talked about how big cruise ships are getting, so a thousand people can be small, but to us, that's not small. You know.

Jason Elkins (58:57.948)
Feels very bad to me.

Todd Smith (59:00.23)
Yeah, and so my industry again, like starting out as a guide, you know, I know very pointedly what it takes to get people like off of a ship in a wilderness area. And that's kind of our guiding principle, right, is can you get off the ship away from port? Right, so we don't talk really as much about numbers, how big is a ship or how big is a small ship. We talk a little bit more about access. How can you get people into a zodiac? How do you get them ashore for a

for a beach walk or a wilderness hike, or how do you get them into sea kayaks or snorkeling? And so, kind of our criteria, like I said, of what we consider an expedition ship is a ship that has the ability to get people off the boat away from port. know, kind of inherently the number where you can do that and give people a meaningful experience, I feel like is about 150, right? Once you get beyond that, it starts to...

be difficult to give people a meaningful off -essel experience. Now there are boats, and particularly in Antarctica, that are getting bigger than that, up to about 200 or so. And that's just the nature of Antarctica. It takes a very specialized kind of a ship in order to do that, and they're very expensive to build, so you need certain numbers to make it pay. But getting off the ship away from port in the company of a great naturalist guide, that's kind of what it's all about.

right? you know, you asked me before we started talking, you who's the client, you know, for a trip like this? And I think, well, you and I, I think certainly are, right? I think people that maybe, you know, working professionals, or maybe just recently retired, people that maybe, you know, when they graduated college, they went backpacking around Europe or backpacking around South America or Southeast Asia, right? And

they loved it, right? And now they're maybe in their 50s and 60s and they want that same experience, but they also want a comfortable bed and a hot shower and a nice meal. And somebody to make the decisions. Yeah. And so that's really what expedition cruises can provide, right? These really kind of, you know, really out of the ordinary

Jason Elkins (01:01:09.866)
and someone to go with them, maybe.

Todd Smith (01:01:26.052)
experiences pretty, you know, they can be pretty adventurous, right, paddling in front of a glacier, you know, or taking a zodiac, you know, near a pod of whales is something that would be logistically challenging without the platform of this, of these small ships. So you get these incredible experiences that at one time were reserved for only the most rugged, you know, kind of backcountry people.

And now ordinary travelers can have these experiences and it's that access that these small ships can provide that can provide these extraordinary opportunities and experiences for ordinary travelers. And getting into the destinations a little bit, I talk up lot about the big three and it's really kind of becoming the big four, But Alaska, Galapagos, Antarctica.

and the Arctic, right? These are four destinations where people get introduced to this style of travel, right? In the Galapagos, the ships are limited to 100 people with only 16 people ashore. In Antarctica, the ships are limited to 500 people with 100 people ashore. So they're kind of forced into small ships, right?

In Alaska, like I said, there's a lot of choices, but when people know about the small ships, they choose that. But these are the gateway destinations that I call them that people learn about this style of travel. I'm going to the Galapagos. I've never been on a cruise before. I go on a small boat and they're like, this is awesome. I'm getting this incredible access. I'm getting away from the towns. I have these wonderful guides and this great food and these really like -minded folks that are on board.

And so they love it. And then they come back and say, that was amazing. Where else can I do that? And it's like, well, all over the world, know, anywhere where the land meets the sea, pretty much these days, there's a small ship operating. know, so like I said, those are kind of the gateway destinations where people discover small ship expedition cruises. And once they do it, a lot of them are hooked. And this is exactly what they want to do. They want to do it all over. They want to do it.

Jason Elkins (01:03:23.468)
You

Todd Smith (01:03:45.694)
over and over again, so Mediterranean, Caribbean, Australia, New Zealand, Indonesia, South Pacific, of course, Alaska, we talked about, you know, Greenland, Svalbard, Iceland, I mean, so there's just so many wonderful destinations that you could just spend a lifetime, which I have, and I still haven't even come close to doing it all. And there's new destinations and new...

Jason Elkins (01:04:06.049)
Mm

Todd Smith (01:04:12.7)
new itineraries all the time, some of the hot destinations right now. Greenland is really hot. There's a lot of new unique itineraries in that region. There's some wonderful new boats that are really kind of pushing the limits of sustainable travel, getting away from fossil fuels, but also having the capacity to break through ice and things like that. boats that are actually reaching the geographic North Pole.

that are just, you know, technological achievements that are just amazing. You know, so the Arctic has been really hot. We're seeing a lot of new itineraries in Mediterranean. The season is extending there, right? It used to be just June, July, and August. Now we're getting into April and May and September and October. And so you can kind of still go when it's not the high season during the summer. Sounds like you maybe had a question there, Jason.

Jason Elkins (01:05:08.342)
Yeah, help me understand. So for our listeners, Todd and I are here doing a video call. So he saw the expression on my face. Honestly, I was thinking, OK, take a cruise to the North Pole, other than just the novelty of hitting the geographical North Pole.

I mean, honestly, because we're talking about getting off the boat and going and doing stuff. I don't know enough about the Arctic to understand why would somebody want to go to the Arctic. So I'm just going to say it as maybe a listener might be like, well, why would I want to take a cruise to the Arctic? Because it's all I imagine is ice, maybe polar bears, maybe some seals. But other than that, help me understand the draw to the Arctic.

Todd Smith (01:05:45.192)
Yeah.

Todd Smith (01:05:49.798)
Yeah, I mean, that is a big part of it, right? Certainly people that are booking a trip like this are pretty well -traveled people, right? And so some of them might be checking off the box that I said that I went to the North Pole, and that's part of it. it really is, you know, again, the poles tend to be kind of one of the last wildernesses on Earth and people.

Jason Elkins (01:06:14.059)
Okay.

Todd Smith (01:06:15.164)
People want to see it. The vast expanses of ice, midnight sun, polar bears are a big draw on a trip like that. You're also on these types of North Pole trips, you're usually visiting or transiting through Svalbard and or Greenland. So you are getting close to the shore as well.

Jason Elkins (01:06:27.35)
Mm

Todd Smith (01:06:40.574)
And so you're seeing the whales and the seals and the birds. And so just tremendous wildlife. If you're going ashore in Svalbard, there's reindeer and things like that. So yeah, wildlife, solitude, wilderness tends to be the big draw. It's interesting. There is this subset within a subset of expedition cruisers.

You know, that are the ice travelers, right? And they just do this. They go from pole to pole every year and they just want to do the next greatest thing. And they want to see the big type tabular bergs and they just love, you know, being in that environment. The Northwest passage is another, you know, around the Northern end of North America from the Atlantic to, to Alaska is, is another route that has been pioneered recently.

And so people that are into it, they just want to be the first ones to do that. And so it really is kind of an interesting niche of these folks that just are really passionate about the poles, passionate about the wildlife and the ice. A lot of people, like I said, Antarctica is definitely the gateway. People want to do it. They want to see the penguins. They want to set foot on Antarctica.

Jason Elkins (01:07:41.868)
Okay.

Todd Smith (01:08:03.102)
And then they learn about it and then they go to the Arctic and a lot of people come back and they say, wow, you know, I'm more blown away by the expanse and the solitude and kind of the majesty of the Arctic even more so than Antarctica is a common refrain that we hear.

Jason Elkins (01:08:23.478)
That's interesting. I'm happy we touched on that and that you saw the expression on my face. Because I grew up in the Northern Rockies and cold and ice and snow. I'm not a skier, so I just don't kind of get it. I do get Antarctica. That'll be my number seven continent. I will go, and I'm excited to go there. But I just had never thought about even going to the Arctic. So I appreciate you touching on that. Because I'm sure I'm not the only one that was wondering.

Todd Smith (01:08:50.034)
Yeah, really is kind of an up and coming destination. Like I said, in this industry as it's growing, the operators are like, where can we go that give these people this experience and kind of get away from it all? And that's a place with a lot of untapped potential. there's new generation of ships that's really well equipped to get there, get there safely and get folks into a pretty amazing environment.

Jason Elkins (01:09:03.861)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:09:18.698)
Interesting. I don't know if you mentioned, I don't think you did. I was listening for it, but I don't even know why I want to ask you about this, but is there anything in your mind that's interesting about river cruising in Europe?

Todd Smith (01:09:32.914)
Yeah, mean, there are, you know, that's a whole nother, you know, kind of a niche. And like I said, it's, you know, our criteria is kind of getting off the boat away from port. So it's, it's difficult to do that on a, on a river. What?

Jason Elkins (01:09:45.302)
Yeah, I don't, I don't know enough about the river cruise. was just like, I've had family members say, I want to go on a river cruise in Europe. And I'm like, I don't think so. But I'm curious. Maybe there's something there.

Todd Smith (01:09:52.222)
Yeah, I think it's a wonderful way to go, right? To see Europe and to get into the middle of these historic cities in a way that's unique and doesn't require a lot of logistics, right? So I think it is unique. We dabble in barge cruises, right? Which are very small, eight to maybe 14, 16 guests. And the reason we...

Jason Elkins (01:10:19.906)
Okay, that sounds cool.

Todd Smith (01:10:21.18)
The reason we like those is because you can really kind of craft it and customize it, right? So if you want to go mountain biking, you know, we can arrange that. If you want to, you know, do some of the more active adventure type activities, mountain biking, you know, just hiking and trekking, even, you know, golfing and things like that. Whereas if you're on the bigger ships, you know, tend to have their tours are included and I'm not going to knock them, you know, but.

Jason Elkins (01:10:49.516)
Mm

Todd Smith (01:10:51.07)
being able to customize it requires a little bit of a smaller platform. And so that's what we do. They don't necessarily get off the boat away from port, but you're in much smaller ports and you can customize the experience to a far greater degree than you can when you have 70, 80, 200 guests. And so when you have a small group or even a charter, you can really kind of customize the experience.

to what people want to do. And our clients tend to want to get out there and be active.

Jason Elkins (01:11:20.534)
Yeah, because

Jason Elkins (01:11:26.626)
Right. Cause if you've got 200 people, if you want to do mountain biking, you got to have that planned. when you build the ship, like, okay, this is our mountain biking operator. on every Tuesday and Friday, we're going to stop and we're going to put 50 people on bicycles and they're going to go bike riding.

Todd Smith (01:11:36.794)
Okay.

Todd Smith (01:11:44.936)
Yeah, yeah. Or even riding right along the river with the boat, right? That's something that you can do on a barge, right? On a barge cruise is you can get off, ride along the tow path, meet them at the next stop. You're sitting there sipping your glass of wine, because you've probably gone faster than the barge itself. And so you're waiting for them sipping your wine as the boat comes and meets you.

Jason Elkins (01:11:50.24)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:12:00.867)
that's cool!

Jason Elkins (01:12:07.734)
So you've got like the bicycles right on the barge so they can just take one. Actually, that sounds really cool.

Todd Smith (01:12:12.004)
Yeah, yeah, they can they can do that. And so you can just hop off and right, right, right, right, right, right alongside of the towpath, which is a great way to just to see things and kind of experience the local culture.

Jason Elkins (01:12:23.39)
Okay. You just totally changed my mind with that, with just, just with that, just with being able to get on the bike and go ahead a little bit and have a little bit of independence, if you want to call it that, or just that ability to get a little closer to people, as opposed to sitting at a boat waving at them as you go by.

Todd Smith (01:12:25.843)
you

Todd Smith (01:12:41.448)
Yeah, well, I think that's symbolic of kind of how we try to do it, you know, all over the world is give somebody a little bit different, unique access.

Jason Elkins (01:12:45.483)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:12:50.284)
Right? So we discussed quite a bit about the Arctic and I don't know if that's because I made a face, but I'm curious, what is there a particular area or particular thing that's happening right now that you're super excited about personally, either just because you love going there or because you're just super excited to share it with your clients. What are you excited about?

Todd Smith (01:13:10.462)
Yeah, like I said, Arctic is really hot right now. It was this summer. It's going to be next summer. Another thing that's really kind of at the forefront, and this is also tends to center around the poles, but is Northern Lights. The auroral cycle is at its peak. It's an 11 -year peak. We've seen them here in North America. And so that's getting people excited about it. But there's very specific kind of Northern Lights and aurora.

Jason Elkins (01:13:31.969)
Yeah.

Todd Smith (01:13:38.11)
itineraries mostly in the Arctic, but there are even some southern lights in Antarctica. So very specific departures. And again, a small ship can kind of navigate the weather and increase your likelihood of seeing northern lights. And so that's a hot topic right now. Again, it was this summer. These ships are actually operating like right now in the Arctic. They're still available in September and October.

But next summer is also kind of the peak of this auroral cycle. So that's something that's really hot, kind of an interesting trend that we're seeing right now. Like I said, the Mediterranean, there's a lot of unique new opportunities there, kind of in the shoulder seasons that we're really excited about. The polar regions, Antarctica is again, you know, it was focused on the peninsula for a long time and there's

really some new itineraries that are going farther afield. Again, these are for the ice files, right? The people that really want to get out there and spend 20, 30 days going to the Ross Sea or going to the Weddell Sea or these places that are really kind of off the beaten path, even for Antarctica. And then, you know.

Jason Elkins (01:14:51.97)
I just learned a new word, ice files. Never in my life have I, it's, okay, interesting. Yeah, yeah, that's pretty cool.

Todd Smith (01:14:54.718)
I think I made that up. But there they are out there. are. Yeah. And then there's a really the last trend that we're excited about is there's this new kind of level of luxury that really has never been accessible before. Right. A lot of times for a lot of my career, you kind of had to sacrifice comfort for expeditions.

right, a lot of these original boats were maybe converted research boats or converted fishing boats, know, or sort of sort of thing. So they were a little bit rough around the edges. But in the last five years or so, you know, this next generation of small ships and yachts is being deployed that really embrace the activity and embrace the expedition element of it, but with a level of luxury that's never really been presented before. So

Galapagos Islands, Indonesia, the poles, course, and Mediterranean, just really have for those luxury travelers who feel like, want to do this, but I don't want to sacrifice. There's definitely an option for those people right now. And that's pretty exciting too, because I think that's maybe keeping some folks on the sidelines, maybe from jumping ship again. And there really is some beautiful

technologically advanced vessels that are being launched that we're super excited about.

Jason Elkins (01:16:27.574)
I was going to ask you what somebody that normally does kind of the traditional larger cruises and maybe has done a few of them and they've got their pattern for they start planning out six months ahead or whatever. have no idea. I was going to say, what would you suggest them? Then I realized, well, they're probably not listening to this conversation at this point. But if they are, what should just people in general know about you? They've never taken an expedition cruise like.

How are there two or three like, you better plan far ahead or just tips or advice that you would give to somebody that's kind of rolling around their head. think they heard something that you said and thought, you know what, that's interesting as far as lead time or anything else you think they should know to get them going.

Todd Smith (01:17:13.406)
Yeah, absolutely. mean, these are small boats and they do book pretty far in advance. So if you want your best selection of itinerary kind of timing and cabin and ship, yeah, book in advance. Six to nine, even 12 months in advance is best. The other thing I said, like I said, I said it earlier, that there's a lot of information out there and there's a lot of misinformation out there.

And so, you know, if you've never done this style of travel before and you're looking to get into it, talk to an expert. You know, we are here to help. You know, we are not here to sell you on something. We are here to learn about your interests and help determine if this is the right style of travel for you. And if it is, what is the right, you know, product to get on? How active do you want to be? How luxurious do you want to be?

What's the benefit of going earlier versus late season? you know, talk to somebody, ask them a few leading questions and see, have you been on this trip? Have you been on this boat? You know, talk to an expert, get, you know, a trusted opinion, which we strive to be, to help guide you. You know, it can be overwhelming to try to select, you know, an Arctic's fall barred cruise on your own.

amongst all the options that are out there and they are all a little bit different. And so just talk to somebody who knows what they're doing and you know, it's gonna go a long ways into making sure you have a successful adventure.

Jason Elkins (01:18:59.18)
You know, not everybody is as social and outgoing and comfortable having a conversation as you and I are. And I know there's a whole subset of the population that's like, I don't really want to talk to anybody. I just, I've got access to the internet. I've got Google. I don't really need to talk to anybody. They book, you know, rims on Airbnb. They use booking .com to book their hotels. They use kayak to book their flights, whatever. And I never need to talk to a person.

So I'm just kind of devil's advocate or giving you an opportunity to hear how you'd respond. Jeez, Todd, I just go on your website. You've got all the good cruises. You've got a great reputation. Your reviews are great, which means therefore anything I see on your website is probably great. And then I can just pick out whatever Arctic cruise I see. And now I can go search for that and book directly with the company on their website, whatever, whatever. I don't actually need to talk to anybody and.

You guys have already vetted it, whatever, whatever. So what's your response? Why should they not do that?

Todd Smith (01:20:02.002)
Yeah, yeah. Good question. mean, and we do, we email with folks quite a bit or text message or what have you. But I just feel like, you know, a five minute conversation can alleviate, you know, hours and hours of texting. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:20:16.012)
You know what, I gotta stop you right here because remember when you were going through some of your trips and you saw the look on my face and you stopped and you're like, Jason, I sense you have a question about that. Wouldn't that be powerful if I was a client thinking about going on a trip and I'm doing a video call with you and you're discussing the options and you see my lip curl or whatever and you've got an opportunity, because I wouldn't have stopped you. Honestly, if you hadn't stopped, I would just, okay, keep going.

Todd Smith (01:20:28.541)
Yeah.

Todd Smith (01:20:45.358)
you

Jason Elkins (01:20:46.127)
But I think it's powerful when you can and you can get that a little bit in voice as well on a phone call So I'm just I just I think that face -to -face is great at least a telephone call. So anybody listen to this Anyway, go ahead. Please continue

Todd Smith (01:20:58.11)
Well, yeah, mean, where I was going with that is, like I said, a five -minute phone call can save a lot of time. But if you're not that person, we email with folks a lot. That's big part of it. You can do a click and book, which is fine too. But I'll tell you a little story from, again, my experience as a guide. So I worked on a boat in Alaska.

that only had bunk beds on the ship. And so we had a sales staff who was paid on commission and they did not, they did not always reveal to the buyer that there was only bunk beds, right? So here I am greeting somebody they're excited about their Alaska cruise.

Jason Elkins (01:21:34.188)
Mmm.

Jason Elkins (01:21:43.719)
Only had one product, probably, right?

Jason Elkins (01:21:52.152)
huh.

Todd Smith (01:21:55.848)
They're coming on board. Let me show you your cabin. show them their cabin. They're like, we're on our honeymoon. Are you kidding me? There's only bunk beds here. And so like I said, you sometimes, you know, booking direct seems like the best way to go. But again, somebody who works with all of the products across the board can offer maybe some a little more honest, unbiased opinions.

to compare between the options that are out there. If you contact somebody directly, they're going to tell you about their product. They might not tell you about their competitor, who for you might be a little bit of a better fit. So you don't necessarily have to call, but I think there's a lot of benefit in booking with somebody who represents a wide variety of products. It's advantageous. And I often say, my staff,

Jason Elkins (01:22:35.084)
you

Todd Smith (01:22:52.688)
knows these products better than the booking agents who work for the companies who are operating them because we are on, we're in the field a lot. We're comparing the boats, we're comparing the products, you know, and we see the whole picture. So, like I said, you don't necessarily need to call, but if you have any question or any uncertainty at all, send that email, you know, give us a text and we'll help.

clarify for you and will dazzle you with our knowledge and gain your trust so that hopefully you book with us. Also, when you're booking direct, you're generally calling a call center or emailing a call center. So whoever's working at that moment is who's answering your question. You don't have a personal relationship with a particular person.

And so our staff, and I always felt like this was really important in the industry and we're structured this way on purpose, is the same person who helps you decide and takes your deposit and makes the booking is the same person who helps you prepare and is also the same person who's going to call you after the trip is over. there's account, there's the accountability there, right? They're not going to put you on something that's the wrong fit. Whereas if you're calling a

Jason Elkins (01:24:06.683)
And ask for a review. Yeah.

Todd Smith (01:24:15.898)
a call center, or you don't have that personal touch, you may not have that accountability down the line.

Jason Elkins (01:24:22.818)
person may not even be there when you actually go on the trip, especially if you're doing nine, 12 months in advance. Call centers don't necessarily have a reputation for keeping people around. Yep. Very cool. I said, I thought you'd probably would describe it along those lines and you did much better than, I could have done. So, I think that's, I think that's a good thing. I also saw on your website, you know, and I think it's, it's worth mentioning.

Todd Smith (01:24:26.186)
Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah, we're striving for long -term relationships with our clients.

Jason Elkins (01:24:48.75)
is you guys have partnerships, relationships, we talked about your relationships with your vendors. So when someone books one of the trips through you, it's. know, do you want to discuss how that not we don't need to go into great detail, but I kind of get the impression it's not like it's super more expensive or anything like that for somebody to book a cruise through you as if they booked it directly.

Todd Smith (01:25:10.02)
No, no, absolutely no. It's never more expensive and oftentimes it's less expensive. Our volume is able to get deals and discounts. But you get all of this service, you get this expertise, knowledge, you get this personalized relationship, you get this comparison between all of the companies, you get this preparation, you get all this really at no additional cost. It's an added benefit with booking through AdventureSmith. Yeah, you'd never pay more.

We work on our commissions with our partners. So you never pay more and you often do pay less and all of these benefits are essentially free on top of it. And we work hard to gain your trust and have a long -term relationship with our clients. And we're happy to provide referrals. I think it shows.

Jason Elkins (01:26:03.106)
That's cool. And I think a lot of people may not get that. Things have just changed enough in the last 23 years. just might not get, I can work with someone on your team, And they can set it all up for me. I'm not paying anything more. I've got somebody. Is your staff all in Tahoe? Or are you doing the remote thing with some of them? I don't know. It doesn't matter. I was just curious.

Todd Smith (01:26:24.818)
Yeah, no, we do. We have an office in North Lake Tahoe in Truckee, and most of our staff is here. During the pandemic, some people did have to leave, and because of modern technology, we were able to keep those folks on. But we're not a remote -based company. We do have an office here, and I really believe that that's an important part of our process as well. We are here sharing ideas. Hey, I just got this question from a client. I'm going to share it with all of you.

Jason Elkins (01:26:38.743)
Mm

Todd Smith (01:26:53.086)
You know, in the office there's, you know, some intellectual information that passes through here every day that wouldn't happen if we were all working remote. So we do have a handful of remote employees and we're happy that we're able to keep them on. But we're also very pleased that the bulk of our staff is local and we're kind of one big family here in North Lake Tahoe, living the lifestyle and living the dream and taking these trips all over the world.

Jason Elkins (01:27:22.594)
That's very cool. That's a great place. Anything else that we need to, I don't know if you were able to share everything you wanted to share, or should we come back another day or what do you think? Well, it was a lot of fun having you on. I learned quite a bit about, you said ICE files, ICE files. So I got to remember that one. I'm sure that's going to come up in the social lexicon here soon. I'm sure people will be texting that and you know, anyway.

Todd Smith (01:27:30.638)
I think we've covered it pretty well, Jason. Yeah, you got good questions. I appreciate the opportunity.

Todd Smith (01:27:50.952)
you

Jason Elkins (01:27:52.78)
Todd, thank you so much for taking time out of your day to share it with us. And I look forward to collaborating with you on some more projects in the future. Thanks Todd.

Todd Smith (01:28:01.416)
Jason, thanks for the opportunity. It was wonderful talking to you today.