Adventure Travel with James Michael Dorsey - Author & Explorer

Area/Topic
Exploration, Whales, Indigenous Communities

James Michael Dorsey
Author & Explorer

James Michael Dorsey is an award-winning author, explorer, and lecturer who has spent three decades researching remote tribal cultures in fifty-nine countries. His personal narratives give a small voice to those who otherwise would vanish from the earth with few people ever knowing they existed. His separate passion is working as a cetacean naturalist on whale boats in California and Mexico, a parallel career he has pursued for three decades. These combined journeys have resulted in over 800 published essays and articles and four books.

He returns annually to lecture about gray whales in the sanctuary lagoon of San Ignacio in Baja, Mexico, where he was the resident naturalist for twenty-two seasons. His latest book “The Lagoon,”is a definitive study of gray whales and the indigenous peoples of Baja where he was resident naturalist for 22 years.

He is a former contributing editor at Transitions Abroad and has written for United Airlines, The Christian Science Monitor, Lonely Planet, Perceptive Travel, California Literary Review, Colliers, Los Angeles Times, BBC Wildlife, BBC Travel, Geo Ex, Wanderlust, and Natural History, plus several African magazines.

He is a member of the American Cetacean Society, a fellow of the Explorer’s Club, and member emeritus of the Adventurer’s Club.

https://www.jamesmichaeldorsey.com/

summary
In this episode of the Big World Made Small podcast, Jason Elkins interviews renowned explorer and author James Michael Dorsey. They discuss Dorsey's journey from a mail carrier to an adventure traveler, his experiences with indigenous cultures, and the unique relationship between humans and whales in Baja. Dorsey shares captivating stories from his travels, including a harrowing encounter with a baboon in Tanzania and the challenges of leading group tours. The conversation also touches on the impact of tourism on indigenous communities and the importance of cultural preservation.

takeaways

• James Dorsey's journey into exploration began with a kayaking trip in British Columbia.
• Dorsey has spent decades documenting vanishing tribal cultures in Africa and Asia.
• The connection between whales and indigenous cultures is profound and intertwined.
• Traveling with a partner can enhance the adventure experience, but it also presents challenges.
• Dorsey's experiences in Ethiopia included a dangerous volcano expedition that resulted in a broken leg.
• Whale watching in Baja is unique because the whales actively seek human contact.
• The ethics of whale watching are complex, with differing opinions on human interaction with wildlife.
• Dorsey leads tours to Baja, but prefers to engage with participants rather than manage logistics.
• Cultural immersion is key to understanding and respecting indigenous societies.
• Dorsey is concerned about the over-reliance of indigenous communities on tourism for survival.

Learn more about the Big World Made Small Podcast and join our private community to get episode updates, special access to our guests, and exclusive adventure travel offers at bigworldmadesmall.com.

Transcript

Jason Elkins (00:01.488)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler.

Jason Elkins (00:28.338)
Today, very fortunate to have James Michael Dorsey here with us. He is a renowned explorer and author and a few other things. So Jim, so happy to have you here. Welcome to the show.

James Dorsey (00:39.768)
Thank you very much. very happy to be here.

Jason Elkins (00:42.856)
Right before I push the record button, you had a conversation about how I was going to introduce you. And then the first take, I kind of messed it up already. I think I was a little distracted. And now that we're back and everybody's actually listening to this part of it, you had mentioned that there's another author, kind of outdoors explorer type. I don't know if you'd call him that, but you mentioned he's got the exact same name and he's an author. And that started a conversation and I felt like I should have pushed the button. So.

I don't know if we can pick it back up, but so what's what's what's sick? What differentiates you and what you do from this other guy with the same name, just in case someone goes and does a Google search after listening to this?

James Dorsey (01:22.528)
Well, he's based in Istanbul and he has his own website, but primarily he writes about sports in the Middle East. And he's an international correspondent. It's just that we have both written for some of the same publications, so we get mixed up on the internet a lot. yeah, I've received a couple of invitations to places in the Middle East because they thought I was him. And I said, I'd be happy to go, except you're going to be disappointed when I get there.

Jason Elkins (01:38.096)
Okay.

Jason Elkins (01:49.992)
Inviting you to like soccer games and stuff like that. Well, good. I'm happy. Happy we got that cleared up. So if someone I mean, we're to have a link to your website right in the show notes. So there shouldn't be too much confusion. But if if you are listening to this in the car and you and you search them up later on and you're seeing stuff in Turkey that sports stuff, that might be the wrong guy is what I'm hearing.

James Dorsey (01:52.692)
Yeah.

James Dorsey (02:11.276)
The big difference is I have hair.

Jason Elkins (02:14.568)
Well, that's a good one. You do. You've got nice head of hair. I'm a little shorter than yours. anyway, Jim, so happy to have you here. I learned a little bit about you recently and you've got a wide variety of things going on. I don't know where this conversation is going to end up, but I know where we should start. And well, I don't know where we should start. I want to ask you, where should we start? Let's go back as far as we need to go to help people kind of understand.

How you got into doing the type of stuff that you've done over the years, I don't know how far back in history we need to go. What do you think?

James Dorsey (02:49.61)
We can go back to about 1996, there around. My wife and I, it was going to be my wife and I, our 25th wedding anniversary. We wanted to do something different. So we went on a long range sea kayaking trip in British Columbia. And the first hour on the water, we ran into a pod of orca whales. And the fact that I was still alive after that encounter fascinated me and

Jason Elkins (02:55.024)
Okay.

James Dorsey (03:17.617)
So I started taking classes and educating myself about animals, cetaceans, whales, dolphins, and porpoises. Got certified as a naturalist because that's how serious my interest got. At the same time, that trip to British Columbia was the first time I had truly met really indigenous peoples. And that also fascinated me. So over the next three decades, was kind of alternating between documenting vanishing tribal cultures in remote parts of Africa and Asia.

and part of the year working as a cetacean naturalist, mainly at a gray whale sanctuary in southern Baja. it occurred to me not long after I started doing this that they're both really the same pursuit of vanishing cultures because where I worked with the whales down in southern Baja, it is a vanishing culture. It's a small lagoon, only 400 people live there year round, absolute wilderness where the desert meets the ocean.

And eventually that will be a Vanishing Culture too. So the two are actually linked. My two pursuits are really linked if you look at it that way.

Jason Elkins (04:23.74)
I'm curious when you mentioned the vanishing culture, my head went to something more about the whales. But then I realized maybe you're speaking about the community there in Baja. So help me understand.

James Dorsey (04:35.688)
Actually both, yeah. mean climate change has taken a heavy toll on the whales. Last year we had the lowest count in the Lagoon of Wales in my memory. And it's going to get worse as climate change advances, yes. But also the people because they're 35 miles from the nearest tree. I mean where these people live it's absolute wilderness.

They're descendants of the original Kochimi people who turned back the Spanish conquistadors way back when. you know, a tiny little isolated society like that can only last so long. And I've been very fortunate to have been a part of it for almost 30 years.

Jason Elkins (05:17.146)
I hope that we come back to that because there's so many questions I can ask you about that. And if you don't mind, I'd like to go back a little further than you went because I just I'm curious. That's a pretty you really kind of jumped in after this kayaking trip with the orcas. And I'm curious, what were you doing before that? And was there any point in your life that you could look back to and think, yeah, I probably should have started this sooner or I just what was going on before that trip?

James Dorsey (05:45.124)
Well, my wife and I always traveled a lot and the more we were traveling, was tourist travel, know, London, Rome, Paris, that sort of thing, but I was getting very unsatisfied. The cities were all kind of the same to me. I was more interested in the people and I started going more and more off the beaten path. And one day I discovered the Los Angeles Adventurers Club and realized there's a whole bunch of guys out there that are leaving the beaten path for a life less mundane.

I joined that club and eventually I found out about the Explorers Club and so now I'm a fellow of that also. I've got this worldwide network of people who are out there having adventures and exploring and so that's pretty much how I got started through those two clubs and traveling with these people.

Jason Elkins (06:36.028)
Very cool. And what were you doing before that?

James Dorsey (06:40.877)
I was carrying the US mail.

Jason Elkins (06:43.376)
Okay, all right, very cool. All right, that's, I don't know if that's, okay.

James Dorsey (06:46.228)
That gave me a pension, that gave me a pension and lifetime insurance so that I could pursue these other careers. So I took a very early retirement and hit the ground running.

Jason Elkins (06:55.752)
Nice, that makes...

Jason Elkins (07:00.776)
As opposed to with your old job. I don't know if that was a good joke or not, but anyway. Hey, so was there a point before you retired? I mean, were you already traveling when you were still working for the Postal Service? Okay.

James Dorsey (07:02.956)
Yeah.

James Dorsey (07:07.78)
Good.

James Dorsey (07:18.314)
yeah, yeah, because I had so much seniority, I was getting six weeks paid vacation. And my wife was very flexible in her hours, she was working in high finance, so we were traveling a lot, but like I say, it was tourist travel in those days. just slowly over the years, it evolved into remote travel, and my wife has been with me on most of that too. She enjoys it as much as I do.

Jason Elkins (07:33.554)
Okay. Okay.

Jason Elkins (07:42.96)
Very nice. So you were doing quite a bit of travel, when you were still working. I'm curious, was there anything in particular that inspired you to do that? Because not everybody does that. Not everybody works and takes their time and goes and explores the world, whether it's off the beaten path or traveling at all. Not everybody does that. So I'm curious, something in your childhood or people around you when you were growing up that inspired that or how did that happen?

James Dorsey (08:07.747)
No, we had a couple of friends, you know, 45 some years ago who left their jobs and they wandered around Europe like nomads for about six months and that just fascinated me that they would even think of doing something like that, that I had no notions of it at that time. But when they got back we talked and I started getting interested and my wife and I said, you know, why don't we do something like that? So we both got leaves of absence from our jobs.

We went to Europe and we spent three months in a two-person tent traveling all over Europe without any itinerary. Just rented a tiny car and drove ourselves everywhere.

Jason Elkins (08:45.416)
All right.

Jason Elkins (08:50.977)
That's even more something that not everybody does. that's, I'm trying to get a feel for just kind of your personality, like, because I don't know many letter carriers, to be honest with you. And I don't want to cross any boundaries here, but it doesn't necessarily seem like the type of job that would attract the personality that would go sleep in a tent in Europe. But maybe I'm wrong.

James Dorsey (08:53.451)
Right.

James Dorsey (09:02.266)
You

James Dorsey (09:15.105)
No, not necessarily. Just for me, it was a steady job and I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I kept thinking, you know, I'll do this until I find something better. And before you knew it, I'd been there 30 years. But I was illustrating magazines and books during that time. I've always drawn and painted. And so I was always doing other things. I mean, my only fear in life has been to live a mundane life. And so I've always been looking for something different to do.

The further afield it got, the more I was interested in it. It just appealed to me and it still does. I I've been doing this 30 years. I'm an old man now. But we just got back from a trip to Scotland and Ireland and I'm looking at going to Easter Island next year. you know, it goes on. It goes on.

Jason Elkins (10:04.85)
That's, it's very cool. You might be, I don't know. mean, you've got a lot of colleagues in, or that you've been around in the adventures, Ventures Club or these different clubs that I've spoken with a lot of people that kind of are adventurous and do this stuff. And oftentimes a challenge that they run into in their lives is any sort of consistency, any sort of long job that they can actually, you know, stick with long enough to get a pension.

James Dorsey (10:13.502)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (10:34.06)
And so it sounds like you're an interesting mix of somebody who can kind of do the grind with some, you know, some goal and focus for quite a while. And you still have and you also have the personality that obviously likes to get out there and explore things. And I guess I'm saying I'm jealous. wish I wish I could have I wish I could have I was in the military shortly after after school. And, you know, there's a few times that I think, man, you know, maybe I should have stayed a little longer and.

James Dorsey (10:51.057)
That's true.

Jason Elkins (11:03.41)
You know, I would be retired by now and I'd have that pension and all that, but I couldn't do it. So I'm jealous.

James Dorsey (11:06.824)
Yeah.

And I also started writing articles about my travels, you know, and after about thousand rejection slips, I sold one. And so now I've been able to produce four books about my remote travels. And I'm working on number five. So yeah, it's...

Jason Elkins (11:24.466)
Very cool.

Jason Elkins (11:29.074)
This is a writer's question because, you know, I think that people could be listening to this specifically this episode because, know, if they're intrigued by the writing side of it, did it? So you said you had a lot of rejections and then you got your first article published. it get easy? What would you tell somebody out there that's a travel writer? That's, mean, I know things have changed. I know the industry has changed, but I suspect there's some still useful advice that you might give to someone that's

James Dorsey (11:44.949)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (11:58.246)
waiting for that first publication. Does it get easier or did you have to go another 200 rejections before you got the second one?

James Dorsey (12:03.261)
No, it really doesn't get easier. In fact, it's just really hard to say. Make sure you have a source of income. You can't really rely on being a writer these days, especially in my position because I barely got through high school English and to this day I cannot conjugate a sentence. I'm an instinctive writer. I'm an autodidact. I'm a storyteller more than I'm a writer.

But I've had success because apparently my style resonates with a certain audience and I get invited to speak a lot and I read from my books when I'm doing that and I've usually had a good response. So I thank God I just seem to have sort of a natural talent for it. It took me all these years to discover.

Jason Elkins (12:51.228)
That's very, very cool. I can, you obviously you have the voice for it. Anybody listening to this can obviously hear that and you're well spoken. So I can see why they might invite you to come share some stories. And that's why I invited you. So thank you for being here. I'm curious about, it sounds like your wife is still traveling with you, has been traveling with you for quite a while. What, what can you share with us about that? Because

James Dorsey (13:11.941)
Yes.

Jason Elkins (13:17.648)
I think that that can be an interesting thing. suspect you two have been a lot more places than most married couples and that can present its own challenges. I suspect there's, I suspect there's a lot of stories there, but tell me a little bit about that.

James Dorsey (13:26.852)
Yes.

James Dorsey (13:30.339)
Well, we've been married 53 years now. I met her when I was in the Army Station in Texas way back when. And she had no great inclination to travel until we made that first trip to Europe and she had a great time. And it just slowly evolved over the years.

Jason Elkins (13:47.378)
That was your first trip with her?

James Dorsey (13:49.467)
Yes it was, well out of the states, yes.

Jason Elkins (13:53.032)
That's a big trip for someone that doesn't have a lot of inclination to travel and here, let's go sleep in a tent in Europe. interesting. Good for her. Okay, now I gotta ask, because I'm single. Now I gotta ask, how do you find that? What's the magic thing that somebody like myself that loves to travel and has always struggled finding somebody else that would enjoy it as much as I do?

James Dorsey (13:55.053)
It was a very, very big trip.

James Dorsey (14:01.221)
That's right. Yeah.

James Dorsey (14:20.474)
Well, when we first got together, neither of us had any idea this was going to be our life. So I don't know how to tell you how to find somebody like that. It just worked. It just worked. We clicked. We found we had similar interests. And the more we did, the more we wanted to do. And we still do. And she doesn't go with me all the time. lot of my trips are very remote, very physical.

Jason Elkins (14:39.88)
That's cool.

James Dorsey (14:46.77)
And particularly in Muslim countries, she can't go a lot of the places I can go. So there are restrictions to it. And like I say, I've been in a lot of dangerous situations and I don't want her to be there when I'm doing that. So there are limits. There are limits to traveling. Absolutely. And she's come close to dying a couple of times on our trips.

Jason Elkins (14:55.869)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (15:06.854)
Okay, she probably appreciates that.

James Dorsey (15:16.19)
She's a trooper.

Jason Elkins (15:16.518)
Geez, so many different directions we can go with this conversation. Any particular stories come to mind that you think she wouldn't mind you sharing?

James Dorsey (15:26.751)
Well, we were invited to join a group of friends who were scientists at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. They wanted to go to a remote volcano in Ethiopia and study it because the friend that invited us was a volcanologist for NASA. She had discovered a volcano on Jupiter's moon Io and wanted to compare it to this one in the Ethiopian desert, so we had joined them. Well, we made it to the top of the volcano there and we got shot at by bandits.

And my wife broke her leg on the summit of the volcano while this was all going on. We ran into some nomads who had a camel who got paid them a whole bunch of money on the spot and got her on this camel riding down the volcano. I had to hike out of there about 12 miles and I was having trouble breathing the whole way. And I thought perhaps I was having a heart attack at some point.

And when I finally got back to any place where could get medical attention, it turned out that I had deep vein thrombosis, or blood clots in my lungs. And all this was happening at the top of the volcano. And we only found out a couple weeks after we got home that my wife had a broken leg. So all of that was one little trip.

Jason Elkins (16:32.968)
Cheers.

Jason Elkins (16:39.26)
Wow.

Jason Elkins (16:46.962)
How long after that trip was it before she went somewhere with you again?

James Dorsey (16:50.806)
Believe it or not, the weekend after that we were in New York for the Explorers Club dinner.

Jason Elkins (16:57.682)
with a story to tell. Holy cow. Yeah, yeah.

James Dorsey (16:59.532)
yeah, absolutely. And she was the big superstar there. People were whispering about this woman who broke her leg on top of a volcano in Ethiopia. And everybody wanted to meet her.

Jason Elkins (17:10.384)
with armed band that's shooting at you and riding the camel and my gosh, that's all right. Well, congratulations on still being married. That's pretty good. You must be doing something right. That's very, cool. Curious, is there anyone else in your family or your world that kind of just doesn't get you?

James Dorsey (17:18.838)
you

James Dorsey (17:22.23)
That's okay.

James Dorsey (17:38.361)
well, I don't have family anymore. They've all preceded me. But yeah, her family thinks I'm very weird, as do many of our friends. But we also have a lot of friends in the adventure genre, so it all works out.

Jason Elkins (17:54.256)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's pretty, pretty cool. what's kind of, I don't want to jump to what's next. Let's jump back to the community. were talking about the community in Mexico and Baja, because I can tell this is an important thing for you. You've it sounds like you've really kind of grown attached to the place, the whales, the people. What? And with this community, maybe it sounds like, know,

James Dorsey (18:06.644)
Yes.

Jason Elkins (18:21.638)
I heard everything you said, I guess my question is, what do they do now? 30, you said 30 some miles from the nearest tree on the coast. I thought probably that.

James Dorsey (18:28.319)
They're fishermen. They're fishermen. This is a lagoon. It's one of three great lagoons on the Pacific side of Mexico. And for centuries, they've all been whale sanctuaries. I work in the central lagoon, which is called San Ignacio. There's a little town off of Highway 1. From there, it's 35 miles out to the lagoon itself in the middle, like I said, where the desert meets the ocean.

It's absolute wilderness. There's nothing around except, excuse me, there is a permanent camp there. It's all solar and wind powered. We'd sleep in tiny little cabins. And for seven months a year, all the people that work out there live out there. There's only about 400 in the whole lagoon. They are fishermen and they make a very good living doing it. It's a very prolific place to fish. But for five months a year,

they transition over to taking people out to see the whales. And the whales come to us. This is the only place on earth where wild animals in their natural habitat routinely seek human contact. Now most people look at that and they go BS, but it's a fact and I've asked people for 30 years if you can prove that's wrong, I'm listening because it is a fact. And I have come to think of these people as part of my family and...

That's how they think of us. I go back every year. This year, next February will be my 27th year doing this. Sometimes I'm down there. go ahead.

Jason Elkins (19:59.844)
Explain. I was going to ask you explain to me, said it's the only place and I don't want to misquote you. So, but I hopefully, you know where I'm going with this. The only place where the animals seek the contact and you said people sometimes tell you you're full of it. So help our listeners understand what that means.

James Dorsey (20:12.626)
Worm.

James Dorsey (20:19.386)
Well, these are wild animals in their natural habitat. think about that. Where else can you go pet a wild animal in its natural habitat that is coming to you because it wants to be touched by you? Because that's what these animals do. They come up to us to be petted. They put their babies on their backs and they bring them to us to show them off. They open their mouths because they want their tongue scratched and their baleen stroked.

This does not happen anywhere else. On the open ocean, these same whales will not approach a boat. Because this has been...

Jason Elkins (20:55.508)
I maybe this is a silly question, but why do you think they're doing that? know maybe you don't know. What's your thought? Why are the whales wanting that kind of contact?

James Dorsey (21:07.057)
Well, twice in their history, at least recorded history, gray whales have been hunted to the brink of extinction, the very brink, because they're the slowest swimming whales and they've always been the easiest to be hunted. But as soon as, well, it goes back to the early 70s when things like the Marine Mammal Protection Act were first initiated, when we, it would be better to illustrate this with a short story.

In 1972, there was a Mexican fisherman in San Ignacio Lagoon named Jose Pachico Meara. Until that time, these whales were called devil fish and they were thought to be killers because back in the 1850s, a San Francisco whaler named Charles Scamans sailed into the San Ignacio Lagoon, saw thousands of whales and the slaughter began over the next decade. There's no way to know how many he killed.

Now the idea was to harpoon a baby whale and bring it in close so its cries of distress would attract the mother and they could kill her. That's how they did this back then. So this was a killing ground. And Pachico one day had a whale rubbing on his boat and he was terrified that this devil fish was going to kill him. He leaned over the side, the whale was looking at him eye to eye. He reached over and he touched that whale and the whale pressed against his hand.

Now, this has been documented in an IMAX film and Pachico has been in definitive books about whales, especially Eye of the Whale by Dick Russell, a great book. He is considered the first man to touch a devil fish. And today, a lot of people call him the godfather of whale watching. Because until that moment, that touch, which was almost as famous as Michelangelo's touch on the Sistine ceiling now,

That is supposedly when we went from thinking these whales to be killers to realizing they've been friendly all along. We were just too busy killing them to realize that. So now whale watching is a multi-billion dollar industry every year. And Sending Nauceo Lagoon is one of the premier places on earth to do this. And we all believe it started with Pacheco and his family is still there. He's passed on, but his family still runs an operation.

Jason Elkins (23:23.036)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (23:26.982)
I think there's probably many layers to this. I don't know much about whale watch. I've seen whales, but I've actually never gone out on a whale watching trip. I mean, it's, was on a boat once that was kind of like, let's go look for whales. But my understanding, if you were to ask, you know, if someone were to ask me, Hey Jason, how did they do a whale watching operations? I would think, okay, they take out the boats, but they can't get too close. They can't chase them. They can't do anything.

And because you got to leave a lot of space and let the whales do their thing. And then I hear you talking about the whales approaching people in San Ignacio lagoon with lagoon Harbor Bay. Lagoon the whales approaching and sounds like you can touch them and put them. So help me understand this difference. Are there people in the community in the whale, the whale community? That's the right way to say it.

James Dorsey (24:07.122)
and I shall let go.

Jason Elkins (24:22.95)
that think you guys are doing something horrible by getting so close to them? Is this a controversial thing or is this just help educate me?

James Dorsey (24:28.683)
There's a minority that believes we shouldn't touch these animals, but the fact is they are coming to us to be touched. We're not approaching them. When we're on the water, we cut our engines and we drift, and as soon as we do that, they come to us. And they always have. I've never spent a day on the water down there without having countless whales come up to me to be touched. And like I say, they don't do this anywhere else, so that's what makes it unique. It's a place of magic. It's a place of awe and wonder.

Why do they do it? Who knows? Who knows? But they come to us in friendship and we treat them as friends. I've come to know individual whales over the years from scarring, birthmarks, wounds, that sort of thing. And I am thoroughly convinced they seek me out when I'm on the water. Certain whales know me and I know them. And that's one reason I return every year.

Jason Elkins (25:24.689)
I can imagine. Are the whales there? Are they migrating through the area typically when they're there or? Okay.

James Dorsey (25:30.224)
Yes, now there's over 80 species of whales and this is the only species that does that out of all these whales. Now the gray whales, they summer north of Alaska where they feed and get fat. They migrate 7,000 miles down to southern Baja to this lagoon and then 7,000 miles back and they're doing this constantly year round. They're migrating. It's the second longest

aquatic migration. Only humpback whales migrate further. But as far as we know, they've been doing this for thousands of years. And because they're so slow swimming and they don't echolocate like dolphins, they have to hug the shore to navigate by underwater geography. And that's made them vulnerable. And that's also why they're the easiest whale to see. But I mean, when you're on a whale watching boat off the coast of California, you're lucky if you see a blow or a tail when they dive, they bring them

Jason Elkins (26:15.592)
Hmm.

James Dorsey (26:27.953)
flukes up. In Mexico those same whales are going to come right up to you. You're in a 20 foot open boat and the whale is 45 feet long and weighs 40 tons and it's going to treat you like a bathtub toy. It's going to push the boat around, it's going to play with you, the babies try and jump in our boats. It's a whole different world in that tiny little lagoon and people just can't even imagine it until they've actually gone and done

Jason Elkins (26:51.314)
Sounds very cool.

Jason Elkins (26:55.92)
Now, do you need to have some sort of reason to go there, some sort of affiliation, or is this a place that any somebody listening to this right now could say I'm going next summer and they could just, I don't know, even summer, right? Yeah.

James Dorsey (27:09.542)
Yeah, anybody can do it and it's from early January through mid-April. That's it. The whales come in about the end of December. They leave by the middle of April. And after that, it is illegal to be on the water with whales in the lagoon. After that, the community resorts back to fishing again. But anybody in the world can do it. And yeah, that's how I found this place.

It's run by one family. They live there full time. They maintain the camp and there must be 30 family members who do everything. Even the little kids have jobs to do and it's a magnificent place for children to grow up out there. I see five and six year old kids who live there who know more about nature than professors. It's unbelievable.

The people have spent their entire life in this lagoon. They are intimate with these animals, both on the land and on the ocean.

Jason Elkins (28:12.392)
Very cool. I'm curious because a lot of the folks that I have on the show are tour operators. You know, it's very clear that they offer tours and that if you want to go on one of their tours, they can do that. That's not how you and I connected. And I'm just curious if somebody listen to this wanted. I mean, do you lead group trips or are you still doing that? Sounds like you had in the past. If somebody is listening to this right now and says, I want to go to Sonny, Sonny Ignacio and I want to go with Jim. Is that something that you're doing?

James Dorsey (28:17.574)
Yeah.

James Dorsey (28:42.072)
Yes, in the early days I was leading three or four trips a year and they were brutal because back then we had to travel on the overnight public bus. And that was 24 hours from Tijuana to the lagoon. That was a tough trip. Now we fly in a small plane from Tijuana right into a dirt strip in the lagoon. I only lead one trip a year now. But about a year and a half ago I published a definitive work

Jason Elkins (28:52.092)
Yeah.

James Dorsey (29:10.398)
on the lagoon and the animals. It's called the Lagoon and it's available at any bookseller anywhere. And since that book came out, I have been invited back the last two years for a Travel with the Author trip. And I'll be leading my second one next February and there are still openings. And if anybody's interested, all the information, they can go to Baja EcoTour's website and all the information is there about how to join my group.

Jason Elkins (29:25.512)
Hmm?

James Dorsey (29:40.017)
or to sign up for next year because these trips sell out. There might be a space or two from a cancellation on my next trip. Usually it's sold out by November for February trips.

Jason Elkins (29:53.04)
Okay, but it's, good to know that you're doing those, you know, that since this is a podcast, somebody could be listening to this, you know, we're right now we're recording this in November of 2024. But somebody could be listening to this in a year or so. You mentioned the website was Baja Eco tours. Okay.com I assume, because we're gonna have your website link in the show notes. Is it possible to find information about that on your website as well? Or do they? Or do I need to make

James Dorsey (30:08.153)
That's right, yes.

James Dorsey (30:17.829)
No, I don't have it on my personal website right now.

Jason Elkins (30:21.953)
That's okay. We're gonna have a transcript of this conversation also in the show notes. So, so I just want to mention that. So if somebody wants to look that up, because that sounds pretty darn cool. Are you doing similar trips to other places in the world as well?

James Dorsey (30:33.115)
yeah.

James Dorsey (30:38.333)
No. I just don't want to deal with the public anymore. No?

Jason Elkins (30:46.121)
You sounded so inviting until you said that, I was like, man, I'd like to go on a trip with Jim. Then he's like, I don't like dealing with the public.

James Dorsey (30:47.638)
Yeah.

Well, no, that's not it. mean, that came out wrong. What I'm trying to say is I don't want to be in charge of 15 or 20 people that I used to do that, you know? And we're riding a bus and you stop for the bathroom and it takes me a half hour to go find everybody again and get them moving. it was like herding cat.

Jason Elkins (30:57.704)
Okay.

Jason Elkins (31:16.659)
Because Bill's out behind smoking his cigarette and everybody's waiting on him. Yeah, I've been there done that. It's a.

James Dorsey (31:21.623)
That was it. That was it. But I kept doing that because it was allowing me to go down there and be with the animals. So I'm not that much into guiding the people down there anymore, but when they're down there, yeah, I'm there. I'm giving lectures every night. I'm out on the boat with them. I'm telling them about the animals. I'm trying to educate and enlighten them. And we all have a great time. And I do enjoy being with the people. I just don't want to have to be in charge of the logistics of getting them from

Jason Elkins (31:50.184)
I get it.

James Dorsey (31:50.387)
at Diego all the way to southern Baja.

Jason Elkins (31:54.044)
I get that and it was just funny the way you said that to me. Okay, but I got it. I was like, yeah, I've led a lot of group trips. I've spent a lot of time and I love people, but yeah, it can be when you're worrying about every little detail, especially when you're doing the public bus from, I've been on the public bus from Tijuana, not that far South, but yeah, that can be a challenge I can imagine.

James Dorsey (32:16.009)
And I'd like to add that it takes a certain kind of person to make this trip because it is a real wilderness trip. And it is time consuming and it is expensive. And if you're going to go all the way down there, you're a certain kind of person that, you know, you're my kind of people. We're going to get along. I mean, this is not some place where bitchy tourists are going to go.

Jason Elkins (32:33.48)
You

Jason Elkins (32:38.504)
I love it. That's a good thing to mention too, because I think, you know, with tourism or whatever, just in life, setting appropriate expectations and trying to make sure you've got the right people along with you, is it makes things a lot more a lot more enjoyable.

James Dorsey (32:57.651)
yeah, I I've had people show up and complain about the silliest things and go, why are you here if that's what you're like? But not too many of those, not too many. They're there because they love nature and they love the animals and that's what it's all about.

Jason Elkins (33:07.035)
What did you think?

Jason Elkins (33:15.792)
I was actually, I was in the Amazon in Columbia a month or two ago and stayed at this beautiful eco lodge, eco, I don't even like to use the word lodge, but a beautiful place in the jungle, right on the banks of the Amazon river. And we had some people in our group. These are all travel professionals that I was traveling with. We was a little fam trip and we had a couple of people in the group that encountered tarantulas and

things like that in their room. was trying to think of tarantulas and bats and they weren't that happy. And we did the room change. I got to go stay in the room with the bats and the tarantulas because the ladies didn't want to. So, but what I thought was interesting, the reason I bring it up is the manager there at the place said, you know, you'd be surprised how many people have, stayed here and complain about the birds in the morning.

James Dorsey (34:09.856)
Ha ha ha.

Jason Elkins (34:13.16)
it's so noisy. I can't sleep these birds. You know, and there this is not a place you fly to. It's not a place you take an Uber to. It's in the jungle on the banks. You got to get there by boat and all this stuff. And I just thought, yep, that sounds about right. People come out there and complain about the monkeys and the birds and stuff waking them up in the morning. And it's kind of interesting. I don't know the answer to it.

James Dorsey (34:37.079)
I know there's always one person like that. They didn't read the fine print on the website, I guess. I don't know.

Jason Elkins (34:43.016)
Sim.

Yeah, you're like, where did you think you were going?

James Dorsey (34:50.133)
No, we make it very clear that this is a wilderness trip and you have to be prepared for certain things, you know? We've never had any terrible things happen and I can think of maybe three or four unhappy clients out of the probably two or three thousand I've taken down there over the years. So there's always going to be somebody with something to complain about, not.

Jason Elkins (34:57.744)
Yeah, yep.

Jason Elkins (35:14.224)
Yeah. And, and that could have to do with whatever they've got going on in their relationships. I remember I was managing a place in Belize. were 30 miles offshore, on an atoll and we'd get a new group of people every week. And usually 15 to 20 people we'd go into town. We'd meet them at the airport, put them on the boat and take them out. And I remember one time this woman got off the boat and I met her at the dock and she got off the boat and she looked me straight in the face and said,

This was my husband's idea. I don't want to be here. great. We've got a week. And it was very clear that this was not the trip that she had planned when she's like, we're going to the Caribbean, we're going to stay at an island resort in the Caribbean. And this was a fishing and scuba diving lodge with some eco tourism activities. And but it was very clear that she's mostly just pissed off at her husband and

you by the end of the week, she was the one giving the big hugs and everybody, you know, everything was so amazing. And it just would be, it came, you know, sometimes people just carry so much stuff with them that hopefully they'll get over it before the end of the trip, but not always. And I know any tour operators listening to this can tell a ton of stories, very, very similar, but anyway, anyway. So I understand when you're like, I don't, I'm not a people person. Just kidding.

James Dorsey (36:17.761)
I have time for a very quick story here. All right, this is actually in my book, The Lagoon also.

Jason Elkins (36:41.934)
Absolutely, we got all the time in the world.

James Dorsey (36:47.691)
There was a big, we fought a great battle against the Mitsubishi Corporation who wanted to install a huge salt works which would have destroyed this lagoon and this went on for years of litigation. Salt works to make industrial salt because these lagoons are salt flats. So anyway, we had a lot of people in camp protesting this thing a few years ago.

Jason Elkins (36:57.542)
A huge saltwater what?

James Dorsey (37:13.545)
And one of them was a senior lawyer from the National Resources Defense Council, but it's been great defenders of the lagoon for us. after this one fellow went home, he wrote a letter to the guy who runs the company, which I found hilarious. It said, I thoroughly enjoyed my time with the whales and enjoyed petting them and all of that. But I never slept at night because I heard them blowing and there were coyotes in the distance yelling.

and I just could not fall asleep. And he says, I will not be coming back. And you have to understand, I am a Jewish man from New York and I need helicopters and police sirens and people yelling in order for me to sleep at night.

Jason Elkins (37:52.06)
James Dorsey (37:54.625)
And he wrote that letter to the company and he said this is why I won't come back. It's too peaceful.

Jason Elkins (37:55.08)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (38:03.014)
That's funny. Without the you know, actually, that reminds me of just a thought I'd had. I spend a lot of time in Colombia. I'm in Colombia right now. And I've stayed in some of the I guess you'd call them the barrios, the you know, the neighborhoods and especially on the weekends. There's a lot of music and a lot of partying and it gets very, very loud even on weeknights quite often. And then the fireworks and you because they start celebrating Christmas and about October.

James Dorsey (38:16.927)
Yes.

Jason Elkins (38:31.56)
So they've got all the fireworks and everything. And I was, I remember laying there one night, I was staying at this place. I remember laying there thinking, I bet people that live in this community, when they go out into the jungle or out into peaceful environments, or even just a run of the mill town in central United States, they probably can't sleep. Cause they're so used to this. And I was thinking that I should, cause I kind of enjoy this audio.

James Dorsey (38:53.73)
Yes, right.

Jason Elkins (39:01.574)
recording and stuff and I thought I should make a soundtrack of the hood that people can put it on YouTube and when they're off somewhere else and they can play that so they can fall asleep. Interesting. We're such creatures of habit, aren't we? You've been to a ton of different places. We discussed Ethiopia, we discussed Mexico.

James Dorsey (39:14.877)
That's it exactly. Yeah. We're all used to our environment.

Jason Elkins (39:31.91)
And I, just curious, are there any other places just have you super excited right now? Or that you just think we really need to, mention the podcast isn't all about places, but you know, this is how we get to what you're interested in. So what do you think?

James Dorsey (39:45.759)
Well, I'm looking at Easter Island next year because now that they've uncovered the lower half of these moai's, the giant carved statues, we're realizing that there's more of them underground than where it's above ground. And I'm also fascinated about the birdman culture that existed there thousands of years ago, which there's not enough time to go into. But it's just these old indigenous stories that I like to seek out all over the world.

I've been to 60 countries so far, most of them way off the beaten path. I tend to go where tourists don't go because I'm always looking for the history behind how things came to be.

Jason Elkins (40:28.616)
Do you ever look around and say, wow, there's no tourists here. I must be in the right place. Or is that only me that comes up with that? OK.

James Dorsey (40:36.542)
All the time.

I have been in many of those places and sometimes in situations where I wish there were people around. yeah.

Jason Elkins (40:46.428)
Well, yeah, yeah, there's there can be that as well. You just going to keep doing this forever?

James Dorsey (40:55.127)
As long as my body lets me, yeah. I mean, I'm slowing down. I've got arthritis in my knees and I've got titanium all over my body and I wear two hearing aids. I'm gonna do this as long as I can because there's always gonna be someplace I haven't seen or somebody I wanna meet yet.

Jason Elkins (40:58.13)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (41:07.176)
All right. It's not stopping you yet.

Jason Elkins (41:18.267)
And are you still writing?

James Dorsey (41:19.796)
every day if I can, yeah.

Jason Elkins (41:22.8)
Okay.

James Dorsey (41:24.789)
Mostly I'm writing short stories these days. I don't know if I have another book in me. That last book took a lot out of me. That was two years of my life. It didn't sell the way I hoped it would. I'm thinking about a fifth book. I've got most of it put together. But right now I'm writing short stories.

Jason Elkins (41:42.566)
What do you I almost I don't know, I feel compelled to ask this. It's not really what the sub you know, we're here necessarily, but I'm compelled to ask, what do you think about AI and writing? And are you have you gotten to the point where you're like, okay, I'm interested enough that I might go take one of my short stories and put it through there and see if it looks any different or if I like it or I hate it. Have you done that?

James Dorsey (42:06.739)
I have not done that. do use AI to get a little information and then I compare that against other websites and see what I come up with. for the most part, no, I'm afraid AI is going to take over to the point where people won't have to have any education. They just press a button on their laptop and it does everything for them. I'm too old to go in that direction. I'm a dinosaur in that respect.

Jason Elkins (42:17.159)
Hmm?

James Dorsey (42:36.151)
and I'm just fine. I I got to where I am in life without AI. More power to those who want it, who use it, that's fine. It's just not for me. And I could change my mind in the future too. I just don't have anyone that would show me the intricacies of it. And I'm not that interested in learning, so.

Jason Elkins (42:47.122)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (42:55.459)
No compelling reason to jump on board. I've always been interested in technology, so I find it fascinating, but I also find the traditional storytelling that's that, you know,

your story, you shared a story you shared a couple stories with us that other people might interpret a totally different way and they might write them or tell them a different way. So I love hearing the authentic story that comes from you, as opposed you know, it's just that's so much more valuable. Like I have no desire to interview an AI chat bot for my podcast. Like God, that'd be like gouging my eyeballs out with ice picks. And at the same time, I

James Dorsey (43:33.739)
Right.

Jason Elkins (43:40.306)
do bump in there. I've noticed recently, you know, I used to use Google a lot and now I'm transitioning more into that. But that's not, I was just curious about your, if you had gone that route or not, but that's not really, not really key to what we're, what we're discussing. actually we've discussed a lot of things and, and there's so many more actually when you said you mentioned the bird man on Easter Island, right?

James Dorsey (44:07.158)
Yes.

Jason Elkins (44:07.912)
Is that an Easter egg thing? And you said, well, that's all another story. We don't have enough time for immediately. Honestly, what popped into my head, Jim is, we should do a whole series of podcasts just with your stories. The Jim Story podcast and each episode you could share. You should share a story like that because I really actually want to hear the story. But I also, you know, I want to be respectful of your time. So let's come back and maybe do that. I don't know. What do you think? You want to start a podcast series with me? And that'd be cool.

James Dorsey (44:13.877)
Ha

James Dorsey (44:20.32)
I would love to

James Dorsey (44:28.631)
Sure.

James Dorsey (44:32.883)
I would love to do that. Sure. In fact, my first three books are all short story collections. They're all standalone independent narratives about particular places and people I've been and the interaction I've had with these people. And if I do put out another book, it'll probably be a short story collection. So I've got enough to keep you busy for many years if you're interested in that.

Jason Elkins (44:41.532)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (44:57.874)
Very cool. I think it'd be pretty cool. So you and I will have to discuss that. What's that?

James Dorsey (45:04.155)
And yeah, haven't even told you the one, I haven't even told you the really far out ones yet, so.

Jason Elkins (45:12.004)
Okay, all right. Well, do you want to I was I was mentioned, we've discussed a lot of stuff. And I was gonna ask you, is there anything I forgot to ask you should have asked you or or any stories that you want to any more stories you want to share before we before we wrap it up?

James Dorsey (45:13.271)
.

James Dorsey (45:26.192)
well, my f-

Jason Elkins (45:27.89)
For this episode, we'll come back and do more, but for this episode, is there anything we should discuss?

James Dorsey (45:34.01)
My favorite story of all time and I actually won an international competition with this because most people didn't believe it was true. I went to see one of the last 200 gatherer clans in the African continent in Western Tanzania. They're called the Hadza people or Hadzabe and there's about 3,000 of them altogether but out of those there's about 300 that are true hunter gatherers and I went to see these guys and

To make a long story short, because it would be a very long story, without my knowledge, they took me on a hunt for a baboon and they maneuvered me as bait to where the baboon would attack me and they could kill it.

Jason Elkins (46:18.467)
huh.

James Dorsey (46:19.078)
And I came very close to being ripped apart by a wild animal on that trip. And my immediate reaction after I realized what had happened, because this baboon confronted me in the bush about 20 feet away from me. And as soon as it did, I'd had no time to even be afraid before they dropped it with two arrows. And it was only then that I realized they had me covered all that time, and they were putting me where the baboon would attack me.

And I wasn't aware of this until the last second. So my immediate reaction was extreme anger that they had done this. But within a few seconds, I calmed down. I realized, man, I just got the greatest travel story of my career and nothing will ever top this. And so I wrote that story. It became the cover of my third book. It's called Baboons for Lunch. And it won an international writing competition. So that's my favorite story.

Jason Elkins (46:45.766)
Wow.

Jason Elkins (47:13.01)
That's, that's a very cool, you know, it's for I find difficulty, or I shouldn't say it that way. But I recognize that different cultures, different things sometimes can be hard to read into. I look at things through my lens. And if I just based on just what you just told me, I think I'd be like, man, they're like, either messing with me, you know, this is some sort of like, I want this be funny, take the, take the white guy out and get him to Pia's pants or whatever, or

That would that be my initial thought. Because I suspect that someone else in their tribe could have stood there and been bait, but they chose you. Or was this a great honor that they were bestowing on you because you were a guest and they wanted you to feel like you were really part of the I mean, did you ever get to the bottom of it or did you have do you have a story for what they may be, why they did that?

James Dorsey (48:06.381)
I think most of it was let's get the white guy and use him. But, you know, why waste one of our own?

Jason Elkins (48:10.76)
Okay. I would have came to the same conclusion.

James Dorsey (48:16.28)
But like I said, it was not done with any malice. These guys were such deadly hunters. mean, they're like five feet tall and they pull a six foot bow that would drop an elephant in its tracks. I mean, these guys are up from the jungle and they had me covered the whole time. I was never any in actual danger. I just didn't realize that until the final moment.

Jason Elkins (48:39.708)
What did they just put you on a spot and say dance around and get a lot of attention? And I mean, did you even.

James Dorsey (48:43.086)
No, no, no. They took off. I was tracking them through the bush on a hunt. They left me behind, but I was following their tracks because it had rained all night long. There were tracks in the mud. Every now and then one of them would pop up out of the bushes and give me a hand signal, go this way, go that way. They were directing me. I thought, okay, I just want to be there when they make a kill so I can document that. That's what I'm doing.

And what they were doing was directing me to this thicket of bushes where they knew this baboon was hiding. And once I got close enough, it came out and wanted to kill me. And I neglected to say before they even took me on this hunt, they tested me. They didn't just accept me into their clan. And this is something that happens in remote societies all over the world. When I first got there, they wanted me to make fire using friction.

Jason Elkins (49:22.834)
kind of like the.

James Dorsey (49:39.638)
And I did that. It took me three tries. Then I had to smoke with them. Now, this is also something that happens a lot in these societies. A lot of times it's tobacco, other times it's ganja. That particular time it was really strong ganja and I did not want to be in that shape for a baboon hunt, but if I didn't do it, I would not have been accepted. So, and after I got stoned, they wanted me to shoot a bow and arrow. So, yeah.

Jason Elkins (50:01.96)
Great.

James Dorsey (50:08.906)
I managed to stick in your...

Jason Elkins (50:10.024)
They probably really enjoyed you. I'm just thinking they really enjoyed having you around camp. They're probably still telling stories as well.

James Dorsey (50:17.09)
That's true too, if I'm one of their campfire stories, I'm honored. So I had to go through those three tests before they even took me on their hunt. And when they did, I was one of the guys. I mean, after they made the kill, they smeared my face with blood, which meant I was part of the hunt. They decapitated the animal, and we took it back to camp, and I had to eat the first piece, which was terrible. It was stringy and tough and tasteless, but...

Jason Elkins (50:22.79)
Right? Yeah. That's pretty cool.

James Dorsey (50:44.704)
I had to do it because I was their guest, that's how it is with the East Side.

Jason Elkins (50:51.036)
was do you recall any like these tests get get stoned, shoot the bow and arrow go go on the baboon hunt? Do you remember hearing any laughing at all?

James Dorsey (51:00.47)
Not during that time, no. No, none at all. It wasn't like they were, they weren't patronizing me. They wanted to see, is this just some tourist who's gonna go no and walk out of here or am I gonna put up with their BS and go along with this, you know? I wanted to be, and I've done this with so many tribes around the world. I I immerse myself in them for the time that I'm there with them. I try to live as they do. I eat what they eat, I sleep where they sleep, I dress like them if I can.

Jason Elkins (51:03.258)
Okay, I just

Jason Elkins (51:11.485)
Mm-hmm.

James Dorsey (51:31.31)
I spent a month crossing the southern Sahara with Twarri nomads and they dressed me in their own robes and they accepted me as a brother and they put me on a fine camel and they took care of me and I rode with them for the better part of three weeks.

Jason Elkins (51:32.168)
think that you're in, I think you're inspiring a lot of people. I'm sorry, I cut you off there.

James Dorsey (51:55.822)
It was fantastic and no patronization there. They were honored that I was interested in their society. That's been the case more often than not because I get asked a lot, you know, how do people accept you in these places? And I've never run into any open hostility anywhere except in Alaska. Yeah, in Alaska I...

Jason Elkins (52:02.908)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (52:17.542)
Really? Okay, there's a story there.

James Dorsey (52:21.037)
Well, no, I actually, I visited a number of very small towns that had signs that basically said white people aren't welcome here. And that's the only place I've ever run into that anywhere in the world. Like I said, in these very remote jungle villages, I've had people welcome me because I'm interested in them.

Jason Elkins (52:42.28)
Yeah, I was gonna ask you, I was like, what makes you different than maybe someone else that has wandered through their village in the past? And why did why do they accept you so much? But you answered the question, I believe is because you're open. They're open to you because you're open. You're you want to learn about them. They want to learn about you. And that makes a huge difference as opposed to maybe, you know, we think of the traditional missionary that would come in and try and change everything. I don't want to hear about your

your culture, your society, your belief, I want to change something. And I'm not ranting on religion. I'm just, or the tourist that comes in and I just want a picture with somebody that looks different than me. right.

James Dorsey (53:19.17)
Yeah. And this is happening across the globe. These remote vanishing societies, they're contracting with safari companies now because in the modern world, it's really the only way they can survive. They're sharing what was once sacred and secret ceremonies and costumes with tourists now in exchange for money because it's necessary.

point that the modern world has evolved to. And if they don't join the modern world, they're going to perish. And a lot of them have realized that. And that's why a lot of them have gotten commercial. The first group that I saw really doing this was the Maasai. And I've seen it in so many places now. The Dogon in Mali, one of the most ancient societies on Earth. They believe they came from a distant star and travel back and forth at will.

they're now putting on facsimile dances for safari companies. And I get this, because for a lot of people, it's the only way they'll ever see these people. It's the same principle as some people hate zoos because they don't think animals should be locked up. That's one side of the story. But the other side is people will never see these animals if they don't go to a zoo. And it's the same issue with me. I hate to see these places getting commercial, but if they don't,

Jason Elkins (54:21.704)
Yeah.

James Dorsey (54:39.66)
they're going to vanish without people knowing they existed. And that's part of why I write about them, trying to give them some small public voice that says, we were here, you know, and then they're gone.

Jason Elkins (54:50.952)
Do you think, because you have so much experience with this, I just recently was kind of educated to this concept that, you if you've got a small indigenous community, that all of the sudden they've got an opportunity to use tourism for subsistence. You know, they're able to engage with tourists, share a ceremony, share stuff. And now that becomes their livelihood. And now they can go buy

maybe the food that they were growing, or they can, you know, it's just a total shift there.

Jason Elkins (56:56.456)
So recently I had learned that one of the challenges with these communities, you've got an indigenous community that all of a sudden starts to rely on tourism for the food and the resources that before they had grown themselves or they had traded locally in exchange for whatever. And now the tourism comes in and now they're able to go buy the food or they're able, it becomes more of a cash society, I think. And that's...

we can say, that's necessary in order for them to survive in the changing world and all this. But then we were reminded a few years ago that tourism can stop really, really fast. So some of these communities that had become so dependent on the tourism, they let their fields go fall over. I'm not sure that's the right word. They quit doing the things that they'd done in the past. And then when the tourism went away, they didn't have

all of the cattle, didn't have the crops, I'm not guessing they didn't forget how to do it, but that was a huge impact on them. And since you have so much experience with so many different indigenous communities, I'd just like to hear your thoughts on that.

James Dorsey (58:11.548)
I mean, a specific question, I wasn't...

Jason Elkins (58:17.084)
Yeah, well, it's just, you know, have you run across communities that have become? Is there such thing as becoming overly dependent on the tourism? I'm sure there is with the concern that if the tourism stops, they've kind of shifted their life into the tourism business. And now these people that for millions of years or whatever, have been feeding them a thousands years have been feeding themselves just fine. And now they're so completely dependent on tourism.

James Dorsey (58:27.011)
Yes, yes.

Jason Elkins (58:45.468)
that one pandemic shuts down the tourism business and now you've got serious problems that are not climate related necessarily. It's just dependency. So I was just curious if you've, if you saw that experience that, or if you have any thoughts on that.

James Dorsey (58:57.82)
I've run into it a number of places, in smaller villages. People that have had nothing and suddenly introduced to the material goods that come in with trekkers and tour buses and they get a little taste of that and they like it and they don't want to go back so they start catering to that. I've seen that happen all across the globe.

Jason Elkins (59:26.064)
Yeah, I'm sure. it's, I was in one community and they said, we're very conscientious about trying to make sure that these communities don't give up their traditional sources of, you know, food, sources, I won't say revenue, but don't give up their traditions that they can survive on in exchange for, you know, 100 % survival from tourism, because then the tourism goes away for even a few months and you've got a major problem. So.

I was just curious if that had come up in your travels. It sounds like it has.

James Dorsey (59:56.63)
yeah, yeah absolutely it has. They get dependent on things from the outer world and their way of life changes rapidly.

Jason Elkins (01:00:06.918)
Yeah. And, and I can see the flip side is like, well, who are we to say that they can't do whatever business they want to do? Who are we to say that they can't have cell phones or they can't have this or that? Because that's, a, that's a tough thing that I don't know the answer to, but a lot of people are talking about.

James Dorsey (01:00:21.71)
Well, that's true also. Yeah, because our ancestors all came from less than what we are now, and they evolved at some point. that's just life, is that we're always evolving at some point. But I'm just sorry to see it so widespread at this point across the developing world. But at the same time, I'm very glad I got to see these cultures before they changed. And if they're in transition now.

If the only way to go is to see a cultural village, then I say go do it and learn all you can about these people before they're gone completely.

Jason Elkins (01:00:58.876)
Well, I think that that's a very valid point because if we just stay at home and don't go visit places and try and expand our knowledge, then that doesn't help either. I think it's important to connect with other communities. mean, it's the name of the podcast, Big World Made Small was all about, let's go out there, explore, let's have conversations. Let's see what we can do to increase cultural understandings, connections and stuff like that. it's a...

James Dorsey (01:01:09.902)
Right.

Jason Elkins (01:01:26.244)
something I'm interested in it clearly is something you're interested in. appreciate you taking some time to come share some stories and I'm excited. So I'm going to have your link to the website right in the show notes. And it's with all these books and things that you've written short stories is just is there anything you want to share about that? I mean, is that stuff that people can get connected through your website if they want to get your books and stuff like that? Or is there something we need to add?

James Dorsey (01:01:29.314)
Yeah.

James Dorsey (01:01:51.98)
No, they can order my books. They can find the books on my website and they can order them from any major bookseller there is. I'm all over the world right now, fortunately.

Jason Elkins (01:02:07.504)
And not to be confused with the guy in Turkey who's doing sports writing. Different different guy. I mean, I'm sure his books are good as well, but you're going to be disappointed if you end up buying the wrong the wrong.

James Dorsey (01:02:09.752)
That's true. Yeah.

James Dorsey (01:02:19.042)
Well, I'm the real James Michael Dorsey, so...

Jason Elkins (01:02:22.088)
Of course, of course, Jim, I appreciate you. This was fascinating and I see us having a lot more conversations in the future. Thank you so much for spending your time with with myself and our listeners. Thank you.

James Dorsey (01:02:33.957)
I'm honored to have been here. Thank you for having me.

Jason Elkins (01:02:39.304)
Thanks, Jim. Bye bye.

James Dorsey (01:02:40.301)
Goodbye.

James Dorsey (01:02:51.158)
Yeah, mine says reconnecting.

James Dorsey (01:02:57.588)
Mm-hmm.

James Dorsey (01:03:01.031)
Although I can still see and hear you.

James Dorsey (01:03:11.721)
This is 99.

James Dorsey (01:03:52.084)
Yes.

James Dorsey (01:03:59.197)
I can hear you. I can hear you and I can see you.

James Dorsey (01:04:08.573)
Yes.

Now you're breaking.

James Dorsey (01:04:17.191)
Okay, you're breaking up a little.

James Dorsey (01:04:27.892)
Yes.

James Dorsey (01:04:47.901)
Sure, yes, that's fine. Yes, I can hear you.

James Dorsey (01:05:06.235)
Okay.

All right, great. Thank you.

James Dorsey (01:05:20.305)
Alright, talk to you soon.

James Dorsey (01:05:41.171)
you

James Dorsey (01:05:57.991)
you

James Dorsey (01:06:16.913)
Yeah.

James Dorsey (01:06:37.328)
I can still hear you. Yes. It's still at 99 % here.

James Dorsey (01:07:03.821)
Okay.

Now, how'd I get back there?