Adventure Travel with Jean Zunkel - BJ Adventures

Jean Zunkel
President & Co Owner
BJ Adventures, Inc.

At the age of 13, I knew that I wanted to travel the world. I designed my life to make that possible. I was in the textile world for 45 years, married to an International Banker and then started a travel business. I have been to over 195 countries and have new ones on the agenda for every year going forward. I love art, food, great wine (first choice is South African), and meeting people all over the world. My daughter and her family come first in my life. She is now my business partner and we work really well together. At the age of 79 I bought a small heritage cottage in a village in South Africa and love spending time there. The balance is spent in Lamy, New Mexico or traveling. I write over 1,000 postcards each year to stay in touch with friends and people I have met all over the world.

summary
In this episode of the Big World Made Small podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Jean Zunkel, president and co-owner of BJ Adventures. Jean shares her inspiring journey from a small town in the South to becoming a successful travel entrepreneur. She discusses her early aspirations to travel, the evolution of her career from fashion merchandising to travel, and the challenges and joys of leading group trips. Jean emphasizes the importance of personal connections in travel, the role of her daughter Adina in the business, and the significance of creating memorable experiences for travelers. The conversation also touches on the necessity of travel insurance and the future of the travel industry.

takeaways

• Jean knew at 13 that she wanted to escape her small town.
• Traveling has been a lifelong passion for Jean, leading her to 197 countries.
• Her career in fashion merchandising opened doors to travel opportunities.
• BJ Adventures was born from a passion for travel and adventure.
• Mother-daughter bonding is a key aspect of their safari experiences.
• Reading the room is crucial for leading successful group trips.
• Personal connections enhance the travel experience for clients.
• Adina's analytical skills complement Jean's adventurous spirit in the business.
• Surprises in itineraries create memorable travel experiences.
• Travel insurance is essential for peace of mind during trips.

Learn more about Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Marketing and join our private community to get episode updates, special access to our guests, and exclusive adventure travel offers at bigworldmadesmall.com.

Transcript

Jason Elkins (00:07.604)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. Happy to have everyone back. Today we've got a special guest who I spoke with, I guess it was two, three months ago, just fascinated by her story. So she has volunteered to come on and share it with all of us. So we've got Jean Zunkel. Jean is the president and co-owner of BJ Adventures. Jean, welcome to the show. Happy to have you here.

Jean Zunkel (00:31.236)
Thank you, it's a pleasure.

Jason Elkins (00:33.52)
I don't go into a lot of like your background. I'm not gonna sit here and read your bio, because it's all gonna come out through the course of this conversation, or at least the important parts that we, you know, that we want to discuss. But let's do start with this. Actually, what I want to do is I want to go back and figure out how did you get from where you were to where you are now, which I guess is kind of your story. And I'm curious, how far do you think we should go back?

Jean Zunkel (00:56.986)
Ooh, that's a good question because my friends keep asking me to write a book because it goes back to when I grew up in a very small town in the South. And I knew at the age of 13 that this was not going to be my destiny. And I literally focused all of my time and energy on how do I get out of here? And not that I did not love where I grew up, it's just that I had bigger visions.

So at the age of 13, I worked to make sure that I got into a wonderful college, Stevens College in Columbia, Missouri. And I would say that Stevens was the key to my freedom. It prepared me for the rest of my life.

Jason Elkins (01:43.294)
I'm curious, so when you're 13, what I hear is, OK, I know I don't want to live here the rest of my life. I want to go somewhere. Stevens is where you ended up going, but was were you already thinking of a goal past that? Or is it just like Stevens Stevens Stevens Stevens and I'll figure it out from there? Or were you already kind of thinking which direction you wanted to go after Stevens?

Jean Zunkel (02:04.024)
Well, no, I wasn't thinking that far down the line. Actually, as a child, I knew that I wanted to go to Egypt and to Africa, not really thinking that they were on the same continent. But so I knew that I wanted to travel and I was very fortunate to have an amazing mentor in the 10th grade. And she looked at me and she goes, mm-mm, you gotta get out of here. I'm gonna make sure this happens.

Jason Elkins (02:16.264)
Mm-hmm.

Jean Zunkel (02:33.196)
So between her and Stevens, it prepared me. I went to Stevens and majored in fashion merchandising and then went straight to New York. My parents came to my graduation and they said, okay, let's pack up the car. And I went, no, I'm going straight to New York. I have a job already. So that's what I did. And I've been known as the Maverick in the family ever since.

Jason Elkins (02:59.36)
Mm-hmm.

Jean Zunkel (02:59.99)
My entire family still lives in Georgia and I'm the only one that's somewhere else.

Jason Elkins (03:04.384)
Do have some siblings? Do you have siblings back home as well?

Jean Zunkel (03:07.352)
I do, I have two sisters and a brother.

Jason Elkins (03:10.016)
Okay, do they think you're crazy?

Jean Zunkel (03:12.34)
No, they love me and they think that yes, I'm probably, yeah, they probably do think that I'm a bit crazy, but they always expect the unexpected from me.

Jason Elkins (03:15.262)
Well, they can think you're crazy and love you at the same time.

Jason Elkins (03:23.296)
Very cool. I'm curious, because you'd mentioned you already had ideas of going to Egypt and Africa. Where did that inspiration come from? You mentioned your mentor. Was your mentor leaning in that direction towards travel and adventure? Or where did you get the idea that you wanted to go to

Jean Zunkel (03:28.666)
Mm-hmm.

Jean Zunkel (03:39.386)
I don't know. I just knew that I read a lot and so I loved Egypt and the thought of going to Egypt. And my dad was an amazing man. He really encouraged me to follow my dreams. And so that's what I did.

Jason Elkins (03:57.012)
Had your dad ever traveled? Okay.

Jean Zunkel (03:58.99)
Never. He had not even been out of the county that he lived in, except maybe to go to Florida. But he was my biggest supporter.

Jason Elkins (04:10.634)
Was he, cause sometimes our parents or people in our lives can be very supportive, but also very kind of fearful. Did you pick up on that with like, you at 14 or 15 said, dad, I'm going to Africa someday. it may be supportive, but was he fearful and protective as well? Or how would you kind of describe how he supported you?

Jean Zunkel (04:28.108)
No, he was not protective at all. He really wanted to know everything. He wanted me to travel and come back and tell him everything I had seen because he was also a voracious reader and I got that from him, I believe. And my mother was totally different. She was very happy to be at home and raise her children and not go out and see the world. And I just made it a goal that I wanted to see every country in the world. Having no idea.

what that list looked like. No, I had no idea. But you know, I sort of constructed my life between textiles and design and marketing, because I traveled a lot with that over 30 something years. And that introduced me to a lot of countries. And then I had a travel business at the same time on the side as a hobby. And that's another story. We'll get to that one a little bit later.

Jason Elkins (04:58.777)
What that meant?

Jean Zunkel (05:27.386)
You know, and now I've turned 80 and I have been to 197 countries, so I don't think I'm doing too badly. I know. There's still a few on the list that I really want to see.

Jason Elkins (05:35.552)
Wow, you're getting close.

Jason Elkins (05:43.136)
Some of them are a little harder to get to, I'm guessing. I mean, I don't know if you've knocked out some of those hard ones already, but I know that that's a big, that can be a big challenge. So very, cool.

Jean Zunkel (05:51.29)
It is a big challenge and some of them are really hard to get to and some of them I really am not interested in because now the list is over 300, but it includes countries and territories and islands and stuff like that. But the old list was like 200 or maybe 195 or something like that. So I'm rapidly ticking those away.

Jason Elkins (06:10.036)
Yeah, that's about what I thought,

Jason Elkins (06:17.088)
Okay, so when you chose your major, did you already kind of, did you go into that major thinking this is a great opportunity to travel or were you just more interested in the actual major and it just turned out that the side benefit was you got to travel?

Jean Zunkel (06:30.914)
I think the side benefit was that I got to travel because I knew that I wanted to be in fashion. I was always interested in that and design. And it just led me to travel, which was a bonus.

Jason Elkins (06:46.206)
Yeah, yeah, very cool. When did you start? When did you start doing your travel business on the side? Like if you if we were to look at the timeline, go to Stevens, go to New York, start traveling for work. Did it take you very long to get inspired to kind of do your own travel thing?

Jean Zunkel (07:05.154)
Well, on the road, I got married and my husband was an international banker. that took us, the first overseas assignment was to Johannesburg, South Africa. And it impacted our lives for the rest of our lives. We loved it, we made great friends there. And even when we moved, we moved to Luxembourg after that, and then back to the US and...

Jason Elkins (07:12.842)
Mm-hmm.

Jean Zunkel (07:34.39)
several different stops in the US, some I won't mention. But we ended up in New York City, which was great. And then I ran into an old friend of mine from college, and we started a design marketing company. But I took my daughter on Safari when she was 15. And when I came back, I said, wow, we got to do this more often.

Jason Elkins (07:56.798)
Mm-hmm. Cool.

Jean Zunkel (08:03.138)
And so a friend of mine from the Johannesburg days, she was also an American, we decided to start doing safaris. And they were mobile safaris. We were hardcore authentic. And she had a full-time job and I had a full-time job, but we took the month of August off every year. She was in DC and...

Jason Elkins (08:16.885)
Mm-hmm.

Jean Zunkel (08:28.322)
I just told, I said, this is it, we're taking the month of August. And then we started taking friends on safari. And then it evolved into, okay, where are we going next? So then I would fall back on the countries that I was working in, Colombia, Turkey, Asia, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Portugal. So we started doing that because I had a network in every country.

They weren't DMCs, they were friends. And so it just evolved. And here we are all these years later, this was in the late 80s. And then we actually formed a real business in 93. And that's when it took off. And then I retired from textiles and then got very serious about the travel business. And now...

Jason Elkins (09:00.948)
Mm-hmm.

Jean Zunkel (09:28.506)
My business partner retired and then my daughter became my business partner. And now we have a great business.

Jason Elkins (09:34.452)
Very cool.

And here we are and we're going to discuss that. you mentioned that, I think your words where I met my husband while I was on the road or while traveling. So I'm curious, what does that look like? Were you actually, you were traveling when you met him?

Jean Zunkel (09:53.506)
No, I was actually working in San Francisco at iMagnus and I met him through a friend. he was living in San Francisco, but working in the Caribbean, buying privately owned banks to turn them into Bank of America branches.

Jason Elkins (10:01.15)
Was he living in San Francisco? Okay.

Jason Elkins (10:14.954)
Do you, it's kind of the dream, I think for a lot of people, I mean, you probably already know this, like you're into travel, you enjoy travel, you meet a guy who is an international banker. And even if he didn't like to travel, I think a lot of people would find that quite appealing. and doing a lot of business in the Caribbean, sounds like a pretty perfect fit. did, then, you went and lived places with him. Did you, did he have the travel bug as well, or he just happened to be in banking and that required him to travel?

Jean Zunkel (10:43.98)
You know, I think he enjoyed travel, but he had never traveled like that. And once we started traveling, he was great. And he's all, now he loves to travel, of course. We're no longer married, but we're very good friends. But we used to tease him because we said he slept in a vest. He was such a serious banker. And now he's very much relaxed and enjoys his life.

Jason Elkins (11:13.594)
that's really good. And I also want to now your daughter, because this is obviously she's a huge part of this. You mentioned that first Safari when she was 15. I have for years wanted to take my son on a Safari. Haven't got there yet. He's 18. But I've been to Africa a couple of times and I actually took my mom on Safari in South Africa and Zambia, which was really cool just to have that, you know.

I in my case, mother, son, your case, mother, daughter type of experience. So I'm curious if you were, if like a memory from that trip, I just want to take our listeners, take me there with you and your 15 year old daughter on safari in Africa and share something with us. That just sounds really cool.

Jean Zunkel (11:58.424)
You know, it was such an amazing trip because she was the perfect age to go. And so was your son, by the way. It was just the two of us and we joined this crazy group. And some of us are still friends today, all these many years later. But we had, there we were in Botswana, sleeping in tents, in the wild, knowing that animals were all around us.

Jason Elkins (12:05.63)
Mm-hmm.

Jean Zunkel (12:28.606)
and we were literally moving every day. So it was a real mobile safari, sleeping on the top of the Land Rover, cooking out in the bush. It was something that we had never experienced together. So it was such a bonding and such an experience for her. She was in a private school in New York City and really had never done anything like that.

Jason Elkins (12:34.409)
Mm-hmm.

Jean Zunkel (12:59.148)
And now of course, she is taking her children to do the same thing and experience the same things. In fact, they were just in Botswana last week. We're doing a film shoot for marketing for the company. So they were there like the ideal family on Safari. Yeah. So yeah, and the kids love it and she loved it. And then all we've ever done is to try to get people to go on Safari.

Jason Elkins (13:17.103)
nice. Yeah. OK. That is so cool.

Jason Elkins (13:28.32)
Mm-hmm.

Jean Zunkel (13:28.322)
I mean, because to us, that is the ultimate.

Jason Elkins (13:32.19)
Now be honest with me, because she's she was 15 and I know she's going to listen to this. I know she's your business partner and she's going to listen to this. So just put that out there and she knows she's got kids so she can probably relate. Is there any moment or any memory that you have of her complaining at all?

Jean Zunkel (13:35.45)
she will.

Jean Zunkel (13:52.032)
No, she never complained. Never, not once. But I will tell you an experience that we had together. We ended up in Victoria Falls and she wanted to do whitewater rafting. Well, the Zambezi is the wildest river in the world with five rapids, mean, number five and one number six that we had to portage around. But you have to walk down this huge canyon.

Jason Elkins (14:07.678)
Mm-hmm.

Jean Zunkel (14:22.104)
do your whitewater rafting. We were flipped and it totally undid me. I couldn't find her. And so it freaked me out. But somebody kept screaming, she's downriver on a rock, she's fine. So, but when I'll tell you, when I, my energy was spent, just the emotional side of that. And when I had to climb out of that canyon and in those days they did not have steps.

Jason Elkins (14:31.088)
Jason Elkins (14:47.773)
Mm-hmm.

Jean Zunkel (14:51.502)
you sort of hung onto a tree branch and climbed up this thing. I crawled out on that ledge and cried. I was so relieved. So that was quite an experience for us on that trip, but it did not deter us. She has been back whitewater rafting several times, not me. One time for me, that was it.

Jason Elkins (15:11.968)
But you know, they say that in order to bond with people, really need an emotional something to make it happen. And oftentimes it's something scary. You we call it trauma bonding, think. But when you survive it...

Jean Zunkel (15:22.362)
scary. Well, I'm sure that's what it I'm sure that's what it was with the two of us because she's my only child and so the sun rises and sets on her even today and she's 54.

Jason Elkins (15:35.486)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (15:39.124)
Yeah. Mm hmm. Yep. That's that's very cool. Thank you for, thank you for sharing that. And what about her? well, let me ask you this. Do you think she was interested in traveling before you took that trip? Was she like excited to go to Africa? Or is this just, mom, I'd rather hang out with my friends, but you know what?

Jean Zunkel (15:59.844)
Well, remember she had, when we moved to Africa, the first moved when she was two weeks old. I had her and boom, we were gone. And so she spent her first three and a half years in South Africa. Her first language is Zulu. And then we moved to Luxembourg and she was there for three and a half years. So she had always moved and always traveled with us. So it was...

Jason Elkins (16:14.12)
Mm-hmm. wow.

Jean Zunkel (16:28.576)
She found it very interesting. mean, you know, she has not traveled by herself. I mean, when she was younger, she did not like go off. She took her first trip without me and her father when she graduated from high school and went on a European trip with a group of kids. And that was fun. So yeah, she's always traveled.

Jason Elkins (16:36.916)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (16:46.803)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (16:54.206)
Was she looking back? It's always easier to see things, guess, looking back, but take yourself back to that point. Could you envision? Because oftentimes we think about what our kids are going to do. You know, he's going to be an engineer. She's going to be this, that, and maybe sometimes it's what we want them to be. And then there's other times that's like, well, it's pretty obvious. It has nothing to do with me. So I'm curious if you were to go back to that point in time, could you have envisioned her working in the travel business?

Jean Zunkel (17:23.17)
No, never. You know, no, I never ever thought about her being in the travel business. She went to college and made, I said to her, enjoy these four years and it will only be four years. You will finish in four. And I said, major in whatever you want to major in. You know, just enjoy this time because it'll never come back again. So she majored in the Russian language and anthropology.

Jason Elkins (17:23.998)
I guess you weren't even quite at that point.

Jason Elkins (17:47.295)
Mm-hmm.

Jean Zunkel (17:53.368)
Well, you really can't get a job with either of those, okay? So she then, but she's always worked, she's always had a great worth ethic and she is super smart, very detail oriented. She has that analytical mind, she's an Aquarian. But she ended up in working at Coca-Cola. She went to Emory and I called her and I said, okay.

Jason Elkins (17:58.963)
Yeah.

Jean Zunkel (18:22.4)
I'm divorced and I'm moving from New York to Santa Fe. And she goes, can I go with you? I hate corporate life. I said, sure. So I picked her up. She came to Santa Fe with me. We had a great time moving to Santa Fe, so different from New York City. And then she started working in event planning.

Jason Elkins (18:32.348)
wow.

Jason Elkins (18:44.113)
Uh-huh.

Jean Zunkel (18:52.174)
did weddings, big high profile weddings. And then she ended up, there's an organization called International Folk Art Market in Santa Fe. And she was hired because of her event planning experience to do the very first one 21 years ago. So she stayed with them for 10 years. And my granddaughter was the first folk art baby.

Jason Elkins (19:03.028)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (19:14.314)
Wow.

Jean Zunkel (19:22.304)
And then when she had her second one, she did not really want to go back to a full-time job like that. So I said, well, come and work for me, you know, see if you'd like it. And she was a natural. And what's so funny is that she said she didn't want to work full-time like that. Well, now she works all the time. So when you have your own business, work doesn't stop.

Jason Elkins (19:29.365)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (19:46.314)
Sometimes it's nice to just have a job. You can walk out of it at end of the day.

Jean Zunkel (19:48.474)
Now she can't do that. The lights do not go off.

Jason Elkins (19:55.242)
You said that she's kind of, I believe you said kind of the analytical type and that's one of the challenges in tourism businesses sometimes is sometimes the people that start these businesses are maybe not so analytical. They're just much more like, I want to adventure. I want to see everything. And they just kind of trust that things will work out. And there's a lot of, a lot of people start tourism businesses that don't last very long. And then if you can partner, you know, I think the smart tour operator that's like that.

Find somebody that's a little bit more analytical, a little bit more consistent, whatever words you want to use, responsible. I don't know. Maybe I'm talking about myself here in the sense that I need someone responsible in my life. What did she like? What was her first job with you? What what does she bring to the team that kind of offsets? I know we're talking a lot about her, but I'm actually learning a lot about you and the process.

Jean Zunkel (20:46.242)
No, it's very good. Well, first of all, we are very close. We've always been very close and she respects me and my skills and I respect her because she is, she's an integral part of the company now. And she brought, when she first came in, she goes, mom, your itineraries are really dated looking. I said, okay. And she goes, yeah, yeah. And she says,

Jason Elkins (21:09.534)
And you're the designer, the fashion designer.

Jean Zunkel (21:13.89)
And she said, you know, your website is really kind of dated too. I said, okay, that's your first project, update the website and come up with something new for the itineraries. So she did that. And then during COVID, we didn't have any business at all. We were sitting around looking at each other and we decided to invest in the company instead of just getting scared. So she brought in an Oasis platform.

Jason Elkins (21:23.476)
Mm-hmm.

Jean Zunkel (21:43.46)
which is where now we create all of our itineraries from. And I said to her, okay, this is great, but you're gonna do that. That's not my skill set. So now she's in charge of all of that. So she has brought in many, many things. When my first business partner, Betsy, and I started the business, that's the B and J. There are men out there that have a nasty mind. So BJ Adventures.

Jason Elkins (22:04.544)
Okay.

Jason Elkins (22:09.842)
I did not think of that at all until you mentioned that.

Jean Zunkel (22:12.89)
am so proud of you because honestly, it is one of those things that follows us around. I, Adina.

Jason Elkins (22:19.612)
And knowing myself, I'm surprised that I didn't make that connection. But anyway, let's continue before I say anything else stupid.

Jean Zunkel (22:26.318)
well, anyway, Betsy and I started the business and Betsy was really the analytical one. And so she handled all the original books and then we worked together doing itineraries and pricing. But she kept up with everything because I was really traveling 280 days a year with textiles at that time.

I was out of the country. So Betsy did that. And I was more the one that talks and gets people to come and I lead all the trips and they love to travel with Jean. And the tagline for the company is we're in the world's Jean. so when Betsy retired, I mean, obviously I know how to do the books and all that stuff and I'm on top of it. But when Adina came in and she took over that role, I was so happy.

I mean, it was just great because she stays on me, buddy. She keeps me on the right path, I gotta tell you.

Jason Elkins (23:25.024)
for that.

Jason Elkins (23:32.57)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. think, I think, I, again, I just think that's super important to have that. Cause you know, I've, you know, just even if you look at the podcast, most of the people I'm having conversations with are that the person that talks a lot, it's a podcast. you know, the one, the one that talks a lot, likes to connect with people, is excited about life and, and look at all these amazing things we can do. And then you need that person that

Jean Zunkel (23:48.92)
Right. Exactly.

Jason Elkins (24:00.864)
probably doesn't want to come on a podcast that is happy to put services into the Oasis platform, for example, or to keep the books straight and to actually ensure that this business continues and that the money we make doesn't all go right out the window on fun trips and stuff like that.

Jean Zunkel (24:19.258)
that's my Adina. And it's very funny because I keep trying to wean myself from leading trips. But the truth of the matter is, people want to travel with me because I do make it fun. I do take them to places they would never have thought of going. so she is very happy to be inside the company. I

Jason Elkins (24:30.368)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (24:36.266)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jean Zunkel (24:47.586)
So she looked at me the other day and she goes, you know, the truth of the matter is, I think you just need to keep traveling as long as you can because I did a trip recently and out of that trip came six new trips. And if somebody else were leading that group, it wouldn't have happened that way. And, you know, I just got back from Oman and it was a fabulous trip. my word. It was incredible. And we were posting every day my

Jason Elkins (25:03.38)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've.

Jean Zunkel (25:15.78)
The social media person was posting every day. And so I already have requests for Oman. Where is this gene? It looks fabulous, you know?

Jason Elkins (25:22.976)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. It's I had a mentor when I kind of early on who, you know, his name was Dave, Dave Parker, worked at Orvis with him. He was he's one that brought me on to Orvis when I ran when I was working at Orvis travel. And anyway, he was just. Always Jason, the best place to sell a trip is on a trip, and he was a firm believer that, you know, because I could have hired trip leaders. You know, I did. I shouldn't say I could have. I did because we had to sometimes.

Jean Zunkel (25:46.103)
Absolutely.

Jason Elkins (25:54.378)
But he always encouraged me to, if at all possible, to go lead the trip. Even if that left a big void in the office and, you know, maybe the calls weren't getting answered quite as quickly, but he's just the best place to sell a trip is on a trip. And that was so true. I had so many guests that would just travel with me wherever. And on every trip, they'd say, okay, Jason, where are we going next?

Jean Zunkel (26:10.682)
Mm-hmm.

Jean Zunkel (26:16.066)
Well, that is, so now you know why that happened to us.

Jason Elkins (26:20.542)
Yeah, yeah, no, I get it completely. Do you think Adina would, did I say it right? Did I say her name right? Adina? Adina, do you think, I mean, is she enthusiastic about leading trips or is that just not even just like, okay, yeah.

Jean Zunkel (26:22.541)
Yeah, and it's

Jean Zunkel (26:27.288)
Adina.

Jean Zunkel (26:33.122)
No, no, not at all. And that's fine. She's very happy to travel with her family. They love to travel, but she does not want to lead a group. But I will say our company doesn't do a lot of group trips. Most of it is FIT, families, friends, two couples, something like that. But we probably do maybe four.

Jason Elkins (26:56.906)
Mm-hmm.

Jean Zunkel (27:02.042)
trips a year that are group trips. And the reason we do those is because it's somewhere I want to go. And so then I send out and say, okay, I've got this trip. Does anybody want to go? And that's why I lead that. And then we do one trip a year with the Folk Art Market to visit countries where the artists have come to Santa Fe for this exhibit. And then we visit them in their country to see them in their villages.

Jason Elkins (27:12.991)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (27:31.146)
That's cool.

Jean Zunkel (27:31.93)
Yeah, it's really cool. I started the program with the Folk Art Market 18 years ago, and we've probably taken many travelers to over 35 countries to visit artists. So those are great trips. just...

Jason Elkins (27:37.76)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (27:46.654)
Now, do you meet the artists there in Santa Fe and then you take a group to go visit the artist wherever they're from or where they live. So the people in your group, they're just meeting the artists for the first time when you arrive in Ghana or wherever it is, right?

Jean Zunkel (27:51.118)
Yes.

Jean Zunkel (28:02.102)
Well, not necessarily, if they have been to the Santa Fe International Folk Art Market, they may have met those artists. So they get to see them again. But sometimes it's a first time visit to a country. just did a trip last September to Swaziland. And Swaziland was never on the top of anybody's list, but there is incredible craft in that country.

Jason Elkins (28:08.38)
Okay. Okay.

Jason Elkins (28:32.127)
Okay.

Jean Zunkel (28:32.15)
And so we did a trip and it was wonderful. It was just great to meet basket weavers and textile weavers and pottery makers. So yeah, we do that. My trip this year is Ghana, Togo and Benin. And that is very exciting because that's an amazing part of the world. I have been there before, but I'm probably gonna have to leave this trip because it's sold out.

Jason Elkins (29:01.12)
Okay, so what does that mean? You said I'm probably gonna have to lead this trip because it's sold out. Help me understand that.

Jean Zunkel (29:07.554)
Well, normally I have two people that also do trips for us and they are very good at leading trips. But this one has sold out, which means there are more people than normal. Our groups are very small. And so I may need to go with this group just to, it's a big group. One person, and I've just brought my niece on the,

Jason Elkins (29:28.032)
because it's a big group and you want it. Yeah, it's hard to handle one or two. Yeah, one trip later.

Jean Zunkel (29:36.376)
Two years now, she's been with us over two years. So I've got her on the road. had her in 11 countries last year so that she could see what this travel business is all about.

Jason Elkins (29:44.009)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (29:53.632)
So is your niece, do you kind of peg her as somebody that would lead trips? Does she have that personality and desire to? Okay. Yeah. All right. That's good. So you'll still have the balance. This work, this, okay, this is good. Cause you need both parts. Cause that's the thing. You can't, you know, you can't take an accountant and start a travel business for them if they don't want to go out and be with guests.

Jean Zunkel (29:57.241)
Yes.

Absolutely, she's just like me. Yeah. Yes, still have.

Jean Zunkel (30:09.079)
No, you have to...

Jean Zunkel (30:16.45)
Right. No, it'll be a perfect balance again. And we haven't really touched on the fact that I have an all-woman company. And we have five other women that work with us and do amazing jobs. They have been with us for a long time. And each one has their own speciality. So we just give them all the power and the strength to do what they do best.

Jason Elkins (30:43.466)
That is that is so cool. I'm going to come back to that a minute because I have a few questions about that. But and before we go that direction. So like based on your experience, you've got the personality and obviously I can I can tell that I've led enough trip trips, group trips. I know what that takes. You clearly have that. And I guess two questions, one is like with your niece, what's the biggest piece of advice that either you've already given her?

about leading group trips or that you plan to give her before she starts leading them on her own? Maybe she already has, I don't know. But what's the, guess, so anybody that's listening to this that maybe wants some advice, what would be the advice to somebody that wants to lead trips? What should they know?

Jean Zunkel (31:24.984)
I think the first thing I would tell her is that she has to learn to read the room. She has to understand the personality and the needs of every person on that group. And it's her job to make sure that she gives attention to every single person because every person has paid something to be on that trip and they deserve as much attention as the next person. So that's, to me, that's absolutely critical. And she has to have a good attitude.

Jason Elkins (31:56.384)
Can you give me an example of what that either has looked like for a trip you've led in the past, like a specific example or a general example for those of our listeners that maybe don't understand why that's so important?

Jean Zunkel (32:08.794)
Well, I think, you know, today we have so many things to deal with. My, clients are 55 to 93, actually, that's our oldest client. And he goes somewhere every year, by the way. But I think now, after COVID, people don't really tell you the truth about their mobility issues. And in many cases, it's because they're not aware of them.

At home, you know your territory, you know what you can do, you know how to get around. But if you're on a trip and you have to walk on pebbles and rocks and you have to climb a set of steps and they can't do it. So we have to be very mindful of that. Also, people have a lot of eating issues. I mean, believe me, it's, you know, the list is endless.

And we had... Yes. Ugh.

Jason Elkins (33:09.312)
Has that gotten worse over the years? You've been in this long enough and I have too and I recognize things have changed. Used every once in while, get somebody, I'm vegetarian. Okay, I know what that means.

Jean Zunkel (33:22.424)
Yes, I know what that means. But listen, you have no idea. mean, the most challenging one I have ever had in... No, no, no, no, no, definitely not. But the most challenging one I ever had was a client only ate raw food. And so when you're on Safari and you only eat raw food, you have to be very creative to come up with a different idea for salads every day.

Jason Elkins (33:29.928)
And we're not making fun of anybody in case your clients are listening to this.

Jason Elkins (33:41.746)
Okay, yeah.

Jean Zunkel (33:53.89)
So, but we did it and we were very successful at it. So I was very proud of us in doing that. But, so I think those kinds of issues come up. Also, you have to be, we try to interview carefully because some people think they want to go on a group, but they really should never be on a group. They should really travel by themselves. And,

Jason Elkins (34:16.544)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (34:20.234)
How do you explain that without sounding like they're just a jerk?

Jean Zunkel (34:24.474)
I have this wonderful traveler and I love her dearly and she's traveled a lot with us. And finally one day I said to her, I said, you from now on you need to travel by yourself because when you're in a group, can't be the only person and you have to share the space.

We try to do that in a diplomatic way and sometimes it's just high maintenance. But we always manage to work it out and I have a way of getting the message across without being ugly or insulting or hurting somebody's feelings.

Jason Elkins (34:58.314)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (35:10.944)
So what do you want to say now to that person who's on your mailing list is going to get an email some point saying, Hey, I was on this podcast with Jason and you know, all your guests are going to listen to it. So, so you might, you might have a handful of guests that are all thinking, I think she's talking about me.

Jean Zunkel (35:31.086)
But I would say that most of our clients are really great and so easy to work with. They really are. And we don't advertise at all. We've never advertised. only...

by referral. so we, they know when they come to us sort of what to expect and how we operate. We are very involved. I mean, to the point of being ridiculous from the first phone call until they get home, we know everything they're doing. We are behind them, ahead of them, following up, making sure things are working smoothly. We don't just book a trip and walk away. That is not who we are.

Jason Elkins (35:48.052)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (36:13.087)
Mm-hmm.

Jean Zunkel (36:15.311)
because we are small and we care. So we have great repeat travelers.

Jason Elkins (36:20.958)
What's your favorite part of the process? Maybe from, cause the process goes way back. It's hard to say where does the process start, but let's say from inquiry to your last, communication with them about their specific trip. And let's do that two part question. One is an FIT that you're not going to travel with. And then the second part of the question would be a group trip.

Jean Zunkel (36:50.754)
Okay, for me, I like to interview the person to find out what their likes and dislikes are, what their expectations are. And for me and Adina, because sometimes we work together on something, but normally she'll take the lead on one and I'll take the lead on one. Especially because she feels comfortable doing Africa and I'm comfortable doing the world. And so, because I've been to many more places.

But I like to, the fun part for me is creating an itinerary that fits that person's needs and desires. I love the planning process of what's involved in that trip. And then of course I love to price it because I wanna make sure that it falls within their budget. Yeah, that's the designer part.

Jason Elkins (37:38.598)
Mm-hmm. So that's the designer part for you. There's a lot of creativity that can go into that.

Jean Zunkel (37:47.298)
No, there is because listen, it's very important even where we put them in hotels. I want to match a hotel with their personality and what their expectations are. So we have choices and we can do that. I just don't put them in a hotel that sits in Cape Town, for example. I mean, we carefully select the properties for people.

Jason Elkins (37:52.447)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (38:05.236)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (38:09.62)
How do you do this interview with your potential new guests, new clients? I'm just curious, you doing all this by back and forth by email? Are you doing phone calls, video calls? I'm just curious what you have found works.

Jean Zunkel (38:24.438)
emails, phone calls, and sometimes video calls. It just depends. If it's really complicated, then we'll do all three. Rarely in person.

Jason Elkins (38:31.956)
Yeah, because I know video calls. Right, right, right? I've because we didn't use to do video calls, you know, back in the day. Didn't really have zoom and all that stuff. And what I've learned from doing so many video calls, both both for the podcast for so for anybody that isn't aware of this, we're looking, you know, I'm looking at Gene here on a computer screen. And I've noticed that having conversations is so much easier.

Jean Zunkel (38:41.678)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (39:00.704)
when you can see face to face. And like, I go back in the day when, you know, I was having conversations with people, maybe on the phone and I'd put together an itinerary for them, or I would make suggestions. And I was trying to listen to their voice to see if I could hear the excitement go up or the excitement go down. I'd say, well, we've got this option or this option. And I'm trying to guess what they're most excited about just based on the tone of their voice.

Jean Zunkel (39:20.644)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (39:27.87)
And I feel like, you I'm not doing a lot of sales, stuff or Trenory, you know, working directly with clients to build itineraries now. And I just feel like, the video, the video call must really add another layer to that, especially if you're having a hard time reading somebody, if, their emails are cryptic, well, I guess, well, I guess we could do that. What does that mean? Okay. I was just curious.

Jean Zunkel (39:43.993)
Right.

Jean Zunkel (39:47.865)
Yeah, no, it's true because some people have no idea and then you just sort of have to ask the leading questions to figure out how to get started, you know, and.

Jason Elkins (39:53.29)
Hmm?

Jason Elkins (39:58.528)
And look for the eyebrows to raise and excitement or whatever. Yeah, yeah, okay.

Jean Zunkel (40:03.83)
Right. Now, to answer the question about a group trip, basically, I'm just creating the trip based upon what I think the trip should look like, because I'm not looking for input from them. But I'm trying to be general, and I hate the word try, it doesn't exist, but we work hard to have a smattering of everything, know, good food, good hotels.

Jason Elkins (40:16.096)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm?

Jean Zunkel (40:34.05)
Some can do the walking, some may not be able to, but to have a backup plan. It's a little more complicated with a group like that, and it depends on the destination.

Jason Elkins (40:44.896)
curious, I had a hot air balloon ride business for several years and I grew up learning to fly balloons and for a while I had my balloon ride business. And what I noticed was if, I don't know, maybe I was just justifying my selfishness, but what I noticed was if I'm having fun, they're having fun. And part of that's just my energy. is if I'm having fun, they're having fun. So it's,

It was almost like, okay, read the room for sure. Get a kind of a feel like if they're already nervous about being in a balloon, I might not take them over the most dramatic place and, you know, do things fast, you know? But otherwise it was generally, it's like, if I'm having fun, they're, they're going to have fun. And with group trips, if I know I'm going to be leading the group trip, I'm probably going to design it in a way that I just think is cool. Because if I get there all excited about what the trip is going to be like, and I meet them the first time and.

Jean Zunkel (41:22.861)
Right?

Jason Elkins (41:42.334)
You know, if I'm excited, maybe they'll be excited. And, you know, we didn't have to discuss 14 different options for what we could do. We're going to do this, you know, taking into account what you said about, know, there are some differences you have to be sensitive to or you're to have to deal with them later. Now.

Jean Zunkel (41:58.102)
Exactly. Yeah, so we work sort of the same way with a group trip because if I am enthusiastic about it and if I'm leading it, then yes, everybody else is going to have a good time. I mean, it'll be rare not to have a good time.

Jason Elkins (42:08.64)
Yeah, I get that. that being said, so talk a little bit about the process and your kind of strategy for putting these together. And what's the fun part, though, on the grip? What's the moment during that process when you maybe get that that dopamine head or that adrenaline or that just like, wow, this is why I'm doing this?

Jean Zunkel (42:33.39)
We like to put a surprise in any itinerary so that something they're not expecting. And it could be a helicopter ride instead of, you know, on a small plane. It could be a hot air balloon. It could be anything. And usually it's at the right time. people, I love to see the expression of excitement, something that they were not prepared for.

Jason Elkins (43:01.246)
Yeah, yeah. Because otherwise it's like, well, tomorrow we're going to go flying a balloon. OK, great. You know, the next day we're going to go, you know, rafting on the same Beze, probably not on one of your group trips. But but there's that like everything there is cool, but there is that expectation and that pleasant little surprise dropped in probably, you know, two thirds of the way through or wherever you put it is that that moment of, wow.

Jean Zunkel (43:06.135)
Exactly.

Jean Zunkel (43:12.442)
Not if I'm there.

Jason Elkins (43:31.284)
next

Jean Zunkel (43:32.536)
Well, the other thing, because I mean, my daughter and her husband and I all own houses in South Africa now so that we have a place to escape to if we need to. And we, of course, love it. our homes are in the same small village in the Western Cape. But what we have done and been very successful at is because I have friends all over the world, we want our travelers to connect with somebody we know personally.

Jason Elkins (43:43.945)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (44:01.888)
Mm-hmm.

Jean Zunkel (44:02.638)
They have dinner at their home or we give them a special guide that we've known for a long time, or I let them have lunch in a restaurant in a place that owned by a friend of mine so that it becomes much more personal. And we do that with all of our itineraries. I'm just working on one right now for a single man who wants to spend a month in Africa.

And I have put together an amazing itinerary for him for 31 days. And he's doing things that he would never have found on his own. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (44:37.696)
Yeah, yeah, that's super cool. That's the value of working with someone like yourself as opposed to just trying to go figure it out on TripAdvisor or whatever, know, whatever different ways that people do things.

Jean Zunkel (44:47.778)
I don't know how people do that because their logistics are mind boggling these days. mean, putting a trip together for somebody is really easy for us. I'll tell you, the hardest part for us today are the bloody airlines. They are killing us. It's just, it's horrible.

Jason Elkins (44:53.799)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (45:01.556)
Yeah. Cause you spend all this time and effort to put together something amazing and yeah, one flight change cancellation. It's like you spend and you know, whole time they're supposed to be there relaxing. you're scrambling to trying to get, is that where you, what you're talking about when you say the airlines? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jean Zunkel (45:19.768)
Yes, yes, yes. We really encourage people to come a day early and just to allow for anything like that because if a flight is canceled, you may not be able to get, especially to Africa, you may not be able to get on another flight for two days. The planes are full, totally full. So you can't go stand by anymore, that doesn't work.

Jason Elkins (45:37.354)
Do.

Mm-hmm. Wow.

Jason Elkins (45:45.002)
No, ma'am, that's that's quite a pain in the butt. On your, on the group trips, I'm just curious because I know you've led so many group trips and probably a lot of them are with people you already know or the guests you've already traveled with and maybe some of their friends join or maybe you get some new people that kind of, kind of join as well. I remember for some reason, the moment when I felt the most, emotional, the adrenaline, the dopamine or whatever.

for some reason was always at the end of the trip. As soon as I said goodbye to them. And I used to feel bad. I used to think, does this mean I don't like this job? Like I'm only happy when it's over. And then after some more reflection and conversations with people like yourself, I kind of changed my take on that. And I'm curious, do you get that? And if so, what's the significance you give to it? Or maybe you don't get it at all. Maybe you're sad, I don't know.

Jean Zunkel (46:25.88)
Yeah.

Jean Zunkel (46:42.618)
You know, I think that new friendships are formed on a lot of our trips. And for me, I'm always kind of sad to see it end because people really don't want it to end. And they're already talking about what can they do next. But for me personally, I'm generally exhausted because I put 150 % into every day. And so I'm...

I'm relieved that everybody is okay. I'm relieved that we've had no accidents or issues. I'm relieved that I can go get a glass of wine and just relax. But it's always a little sad. It really is.

Jason Elkins (47:21.408)
You

Jason Elkins (47:27.86)
Okay, yeah, yeah, and I appreciate that. think what I had come to kind of for myself was one is like you said, I was on the whole time and I like being on. That's my personality, but at the same time, after a week or two of constantly being on and constantly worrying about every step, like is the guide going to show up on time? I mean, I hired a good guide.

Jean Zunkel (47:38.298)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (47:52.042)
But things happen, you know, so is the transfer going to show up on time or is the airline going to change something? So you're constantly and reading the room, which can be exhausting because you've got some people that make it really obvious what they need and you've got other people that may take three or four days before you figure out what they need to have a good time.

Jean Zunkel (47:53.497)
Yes.

Jean Zunkel (48:09.294)
That's very true. Well, I'm very blessed because I do have Adina behind me. She is reconfirming everything. So when I'm on a trip, I don't really have to worry about anything like that. I know that she is handling all those details. of course WhatsApp has made it so amazing. You can be in touch with anybody anywhere. Isn't that the truth?

Jason Elkins (48:30.558)
I wish I would have had that back in the day when I was leading trips. because I mean, just even getting any sort of self-service was a real challenge. I remember a trip I led to Chile, flew into Santiago, meeting my group at the Ritz Carlton the following morning. We're going to go spend a week on a big boat with helicopters. And it was this amazing trip. I'd already led the trip one or two times before.

But I actually didn't even have a cell phone because where I was living in Vermont, we didn't have good service anyway. I didn't even have a cell phone. And there was a big earthquake that night. Like a big earthquake. You might even remember hearing about it. You know, the airport collapsed and it was it was kind of a thing. And it was like.

Jean Zunkel (49:12.375)
Ha ha ha.

Jason Elkins (49:20.448)
I think me and my boss both kind of realized, geez, maybe Jason should have a cell phone. Cause I was, you know, like trying to work through the desk and I knew the guests were staying in the hotel, but I didn't know what they looked like. Most of them. it was just, and you know, people weren't in their rooms. So you couldn't just say, can you please call room two 13 because they weren't in the room because there was an earthquake. They were either in the lobby or down in the, in the grass outside. was just so anyway, so that was, and now I'm thinking we've got WhatsApp groups.

Jean Zunkel (49:41.124)
They weren't in the room. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (49:50.442)
You put everybody in one WhatsApp group and everybody's like, Hey, I got to the airport a little early. Is anybody else on this flight and data? You know, let's go grab some coffee. And it's just like so.

Jean Zunkel (50:01.402)
Well, see, that's what we do now and it's great. And then if we are in a place that we know that there will not be Wi-Fi, I have to say I like those places, but I have a sat phone. So if anybody needs an urgent call or something, we can do that.

Jason Elkins (50:03.188)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (50:20.466)
Right, right. That's good to mention because you mentioned the age range of your clients. It's good to feel that comfort that you've got that around.

Jean Zunkel (50:29.688)
Well, everybody has to have travel insurance and I know it's an aggravation because it's so expensive, but honestly, trips, I don't even care who you are today. just, unexpected things happen. So you really do need travel insurance.

Jason Elkins (50:43.68)
Hmm?

Jason Elkins (50:47.134)
You can look at it as expensive or you just try and reframe it. This is part of the trip. Like I'm spending $8,000, $12,000. The insurance is a couple hundred bucks, whatever it is. And you probably, I'm not quoting insurance. I'm not an insurance agent, but, it's like, okay, just kind of mentally add that to the price. That's just part of the trip because it is so, so important. And I mean, unfortunately I've been around the travels long enough. No, sometimes people don't come back in the same condition that they left.

Jean Zunkel (50:52.387)
Right.

Jean Zunkel (51:16.941)
Absolutely.

Jason Elkins (51:17.364)
You know, and the trip insurance can help. So anyway, we, we, we've pitched that is our particular brand. you want to mention? Let's not go there. Let's not go there. I'm, I'm still holding out that maybe a trip insurance company will sponsor the podcast. That's not mentioned any names. anyway, so, boy, man, we have discussed a bunch of things, Gene. I'm curious. Cause we could just keep going. I know we could. And what did I forget to ask you?

Jean Zunkel (51:20.74)
can help.

Jean Zunkel (51:25.658)
No, I'm not going to do that. No.

Jean Zunkel (51:33.69)
Hahaha!

Jason Elkins (51:47.422)
What should I have asked you? Or what do you want to make sure that our listeners know about either you, your business, or just general philosophical thoughts that you want to share with them before we wrap up?

Jean Zunkel (52:00.826)
Well, I guess you didn't ask me what my favorite destination is.

Jason Elkins (52:07.892)
Do you know how many times I've asked that just in general and people say, it's impossible. But I'll play along. Gene, so after visiting 198, did you say countries? 197 countries. What's your favorite destination?

Jean Zunkel (52:12.794)
Seven, seven.

Jean Zunkel (52:24.118)
Africa, always. No, not just Egypt, but Africa is pretty enticing. And I guess my most favorite difficult, challenging trip was done a long time ago, and I was in the Solomon Islands. And that was an amazing destination, but I've never taken anyone there because it has changed a lot since I was there.

Jason Elkins (52:26.068)
Not just Egypt. The other one, Africa.

Jason Elkins (52:42.056)
Okay.

Jean Zunkel (52:52.12)
I mean, I saw it in its pure raw form and it's just made so many changes.

Jason Elkins (52:59.752)
I suspect there's at least a few people that are listening to this that really don't know much about the Solomon Islands, myself included.

Jean Zunkel (53:05.668)
Well, the Solomon Islands are in the Pacific and they were very integral during World War II. Guadalcanal is on the Solomon Islands. And basically the Solomons were headhunters until the 60s. And they're very prehistoric, very similar to New Guinea, Papua New Guinea. But it was an amazing trip and a group of...

Jason Elkins (53:12.393)
Okay.

Jason Elkins (53:20.96)
Hmm.

Jason Elkins (53:31.072)
Well, it made it complicated because I think you said it most complex or complicated. I can't remember the word you used exactly.

Jean Zunkel (53:35.642)
Absolutely, we arrived with no planning at all. We had no idea what we were getting into. And I said, like, have you planned food for the group? No. I said, okay, so we went to the market and got food. So that was my first time to organize that. And it was raining and we spent three weeks in the back of pickup trucks soaking wet, traveling from one island to the next. was...

Jason Elkins (54:04.254)
Was this with guests? Was this with your clients? Five friends. OK, are they still friends? OK, all right, well, I wasn't meaning that. just meant like I should have said immediately after this trip, were they still friends?

Jean Zunkel (54:06.82)
It was with five friends. Five friends. Yes, the ones that are alive are still friends. No, no, no.

Jean Zunkel (54:20.954)
And I guess what I would want somebody to know is that we really are passionate about what we do. We make it an effort to visit every single place that we put someone so that we can speak with authority. We care about our travelers. And I would just say travel. Don't stop traveling because I think that it's a great way to be an ambassador to the world.

And hopefully that would bring peace by meeting other communities and knowing that basically everybody on the planet wants the same thing. They want a roof over their head. They want to feed their families. They want to educate their families. And they may speak a different language and they may wear different clothes, but we're all the same people. And the world has a lot to offer.

Jason Elkins (55:12.276)
We're all on this big world. We're all on it together. And let's make it a little smaller. Is that kind of like the big world made small? I love your words. That's beautiful. Gene, thank you so much for your insights, your wisdom, and your sense of humor. I really enjoyed having you on the show and look forward to coming back and maybe collaborating on some other projects at some point.

Jean Zunkel (55:23.002)
You

Jean Zunkel (55:34.916)
Thank you so much. It's been a great pleasure and to see you face to face and talk about a lot of things.

Jason Elkins (55:41.714)
It was wonderful. Thanks, Gene. Talk to you soon.

Jean Zunkel (55:43.322)
Thank you.